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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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Hey Stephen,
This is just Bullsh1t man!
Man it's just a phase you're going through.
I see the pictures of your guitars and you are a SUPERB builder and craftsman.
There are quite a lot of makers out there now, all struggling at some position on the ladder to making a decent income.
Main thing is to get known.
This is why ToddK is working in an office right now, instead of being the creative and amazing guitarist he is on the concert circle.
Even when Todd was playing pick style, (and maybe even more so) he could have EASILY put an hour and a half's stuff together and toured Europe, maybe not at PdL ticket entries, but would have gone home with quite a bundle and more importantly, would have made important friends who could have pulled strings for him within the entertainment world.
I see the sort of crap that passes as "virtuosity" in the clubs and concert halls.
How the F do you think Paul Simon and others did it?
He didn't just play his guitar and sing in his bedroom, that's for sure.
Folk (in general) these days, are so f'ing thick that they don't know if anybody is f'ing great or not by their own judgement anymore....the bastards have got to see you on TV or in the press etc to make their minds up for them....
Advertising and (these days) "hyping" your business is normal.
Long gone are the days when you did something good and people just "discovered" you.
These days they need to see it on a billboard held six inches from their eyes.
It's just the usual mid-life crisis that everybody goes through and questions what they are doing and what the alternatives could have been or maybe could be.
Some people go out and buy leathers and a 1500cc motorbike.. 
Have faith, go and get a woman and a bottle and have a relaxed weekend and this will all pass.
You are an ace maker and things will turn out OK.
I guarantee it.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Apr. 15 2011 18:18:57
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aarongreen
Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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Hi Dennis!
Good to see you on the foro
Stephen
Its a tough row to hoe, there is no doubt about it. Not sure how many people have built two guitars and have a career though. If they do have a career in two guitars then it will be interesting to see if they have a career after 20.
Its hard not to compare oneself to others, I had a email from a very famous, successful and highly regarded builder (whom I really like too) and he was bitching about so and so's success. This builder (who sent the email) has more orders than he can fill and demand that stretches for decades in both directions, yet he was not pleased that this guy was getting more money per guitar. The reality is said builder could choose to charge that kind of money and probably would still sell guitars. However he laid it all out bare for me to see and it was quite a lesson in human nature and the grass always seeming greener. Especially since at that point my two year waiting list had dwindled down quite a bit, to practically no waiting list at all. I kept my criticism to myself and decided not to ever get into that kind of conversation with him in person lest I be tempted to smack him upside the head. Truth is I believe he helped the guy out at one point before his success and never got any props from him for it, and that is something I can completely relate to and understand.
Lutherie makes a great hobby. When it becomes a career you have to be flexible and patient. And realize that whatever you love about it will change, hopefully there is still enough for you to love without feeling like you should be doing something else. If after enough time, you still feel like you should be doing something else (for a career anyways) , then do it. If not then look at what you're building, what people are saying and work towards building what your clients or those who you wish to be your clients, are looking for. Not to say you whore yourself to anyone who is standing there with money but the whole point of the guitar is that a guitarist will play it. Thats the job and the reality of it, at least for me it is.
And I've thought of packing it in many, many times. I don't believe anyone who says they haven't been there. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that if they haven't been there then it's still in front of them
aaron
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Date Apr. 15 2011 18:59:46
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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I've had it really. It's not happened by now I doubt it ever will. Being a good craftsman does not have value today, it just means you spent time learning something that is backwards in today's world. It's opposite of what the world is about, money. I think when I get up in the morning, why not just let some factory build the guitars and I'll just go back to school? Being able to make stuff is supposed to be a gift, but for me it's always been a huge burden because it never resulted in any significant success. It's really making me reconsider doing this. It's beautiful and all, but what is beauty compared to having a decent life?
Making beauty is a strange thing for some people. It may seem a logical conclusion that to make beautiful things is always pure and correct, but in some cases making something beautiful is a self destructive act. So you have to weigh self destructive against the beautiful product of the labor. From the outside for a viewer it may seem worth it because a wonderful thing is brought into the world, but for the person who makes it, it might be incredibly painful. Most of the time when people first start making stuff they think it's a great high, but after a long time it can be come like a cage, sometimes you wonder whether there is a way out of the cage.
I actually don't l feel any more special than a car mechanic, and why should I? It's the same thing, and I am thankful for car mechanics. I don't see making a guitar as anything different than changing the axle on a truck or remodeling a kitchen. It's not some exalted thing, it just has closer perimeters for the parts to fit together and anyone can do that. Except that doing a valve job on a car requires close measurements too, how beautiful is that? I am also thankful for the support with the argument that one can make beautiful things, and that this is worth while, but I don't see it as having worth any longer. That is, the argument that great making ability or talent justify whatever it takes to continue to make objects of beauty.
I remember reading what Bonnard the painter said: the caged bird sings the best songs. When I was twenty, twenty five that made sense, but in a superficial way, I thought I knew what that meant. But when I think about that now I know exactly what he meant. And the only consolation I have is that he continued to make beautiful things, after the war, when he was old, but I wonder whether or not he believed in it any longer.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 15 2011 19:39:41
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
When I was twenty, twenty five that made sense, but in a superficial way, I thought I knew what that meant. But when I think about that now I know exactly what he meant.
Textbook mid-life crisis!
At twenty, twenty five you are full of enthusiasm and think the world is a certain kind of place. Only later do you realize it's not.
Patience is the main thing, like the old bull and the young, eager bull. 
A story...
A drystone dyker came to my workshop to get something fixed.
I didn't know if anybody did drystone dyking anymore in the present day of concrete and computers, so I asked him how things were, feeling sorry for him...expecting him to be picking up the odd job done cheaply for some eccentric nutter...
"Can hardly get any time off these days", he said...
"I'm one of only 10 drystane dykers left in Scotland now and the new Heritage Bill states that any ancient farm or field wall must be replaced or repaired with exactly the same."
"I'm booked solid for the next 4 years on about £100 an hour, mainly by The Scottish National Trust and the phone's going all the time.."
And that was about 8 years ago....
The guy has probably retired to Spain by now...
You never know how things will change and you can't go by any snapshot taken today.
I bet he's glad he didn't quit and go into WebSite designing or Taxi driving...
cheers,
Ron
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Date Apr. 15 2011 19:56:01
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HolyEvil
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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Hey Stephen.. Have been reading your posts for a while..
I usually just lurk around, but here are my 2 cents.
In todays society.. to do well, it's all about marketing.. and word of mouth. Word of mouth only gets done by people who has contact with your guitar.
The only thing you can do now is marketing. join as many forums as possible, give comments, make sure you are noticed.. get your guitar in the hands of someone famous and make sure everyone sees it (isn't that how andres marvi got 'famous'?), or failing that.. just good players. Everything wants the 'sound' of a good player.
I think the majority of the guitarists out there can't spend about 4k on a guitar. I know I can't, so I buy used. Max that I can spend on a guitar is about 2.5k, I think that's the average of most guitarists out there.
It is great to you are doing something you love (I assume you love it), but reality of life is that bills are a fact of life, we can't be 'romantic' and just stick to what we love doing and then starve to death.
If it's money, then do something else to suppliment the income during slow months. if it's lack of respect, then market yourself better. Don't wait for customers, go and get them.
If it's a mid life crisis, then get a red sport car or alternatively a 22 year old GF.. worked for me..
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Date Apr. 16 2011 0:16:19
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odinz
Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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Hey Stephen, ive never talked to you before, although ive read your posts alot..
I want to tell you that if you think it isnt that special, just quit and give up.
If you dont feel a value with what you do, then dont complaint about it and just quit.
But the fact that you complaint about it shows that you care about what you do.
I am not in the exact same position as you, but i am now trying to become a professional guitarist, i know i wont be rich at all, but i dont care now.
People have allways said i should just give it up and get a "real job".
I seriously was about to quit, but one day waiting for the bus, an old man at the bus stop noticed my guitar case, and asked in broken norwegian , what i played, and was very interested, so i took it out and played some solea falsetas and stuff, the man looked like he was about to cry, and he started to clap compas and sang a bit to it, turns out he was a spaniard living here now. I was overwhelmed by his reaction and it is what makes me practice hours a day, that i do something that someone can care so much about.
I think a guitar builder does the same thing, for both a guitarist and the audience, without a guitar theres nothing there right?:)
I know this might sound like romantizing things but you are doing a great thing in todays society. And keeping a tradition alive.
Sorry if this doesnt makes any sense, i am not a very good english speaker, but i do care about guitar, art and tradition. I respect people like you greatly Stephen.
Jonas
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Date Apr. 16 2011 12:43:48
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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I think to completely understand Stephen´s concern.
This is no fancied, but an actual problem.
I see how PR determins yet in the most unrelated, hence practical fields.
Even in wholy craft-related matters.
Like in dental techniques, where I saw yuppy individuals flash up the carrier ladder, passing truely capable and much longer employed colleagues, only for truckling at the labs leader and twaddling as if dental technique was to be their life.
Symptoms of a common, unindependent thinkers´syndrom that can afflict decent producers as unrecognized indeed.
Hey, even in established politics, where exclusively policies should matter, the silly public will go after matter of personal appearance and sympathy instead of aim and performance. That is some incredible nonesense, yet established way.
Or when just looking around at daily perceptions.
Hair cut, dress, voice, diplomactic skills etc. all will matter before the actual contents you got to share.
The actual contents make a mere 11% of how you will be perceived, appreciated or disregarded.
Common cirmcumstance, despite being totally without sense.
Strategy and hot air for trash on the one hand and dismiss and ignorance for valuable contribution on the other.
And the success of the first always eating from the well deserved share of the second.
( Which is what many don´t understand who defend the irrational of **** marketing. Just as if baseless PR and market wouldn´t affect the capables´ living situation, which it does however as directly as can be.)
Yeras ago, I started pointing out in classical guitar forums that Ramirez due to its image is releasing mediocre to alright quality for outrageus prices. At first I was strongly attacked by the believer fraction for touching a taboo, but then gradually encreasingly voices came up who experienced the same thing, and meanwhile there obviously has come about certain awareness on this.
By now this brand ain´t the holy grail anymore that it used be perceived as, and I am certain that the critical evaluation on public forums in the aftermath must have helped with driving attention to other manufacturers who deliver at more reasonable conditions. ( Sometimes uncomparably better performing instruments for a fraction of the price.)
What I would suggest to you, Stephen, is this:
Let a number of respected / trustworthy members of this forum, who in the same time should be experienced with / owner of concert level instruments / reputated makes, evaluate a handful of your guitars over the course of one to two weeks each.
Optimally members who reside near your area, to limit your expenses on shipping costs.
The quid pro quo of the recepients should be to then post substantial and unadorned reviews on the individual guitar they inspected.
In case that you can think of a number of members who´d meet these criteria, including your trust in them to neither embezzle nor damage, such a project could turn out fundamental to your shops recognition.
The quite potential outcome should outweigh the loss through shipping costs ( and even eventual small repairs, as people sometimes seem unable to avoid small dangs or scratches ) by far.
Four or five dedicated reviews, containing detailed descriptions, pros and cons, comparisons to popular makes and possibly bits of audio or video on this forum should yield considerable impact.
Having seen several times by now in the guitar and recording studio world what qualified user reviews can do, I can foresee what a fair PR project like my suggestion above could be doing for your work.
Ruphus
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Date Apr. 16 2011 13:12:12
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johnguitar
Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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A little video was posted recently about an american builder on another forum and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the straw that broke the camel's back for estebanana. It may very well have been the catalyst to Aaron's colleague's unhappiness too. It was enough to give any guitar maker heartburn (at the very least). The first shot is him swinging up to his workshop in a Porsche, nothing new or fancy but a Porsche. Then he goes on to talk about what a great life he has, down to the water to check out if today is a good day for fishing, make sure the sailboat is ready to go, spend some time on the internet, etc. The procedures and design methods too are "different" to say the least: Whatever feels good, six point stars in place of fan-bracing, white glue gaily used for anything and everything. This is all enough on its own but then we hear figures like 30,000 and the word collectors and how he has to offer special student prices so that the common man can afford his guitars.
My view on this, since I feel that we were invited to express an opinion, is that this man making sacks of money on his guitars has a very different approach and although I know you want nothing to do with that approach, the only way forward in today's world is to combine whatever your philosophy is with a bit of effective marketing. We have created a society of consumers that believe advertising and testimonials more than they believe their own ears. Traditionally the guitar maker didn't go for that sort of thing but then there were often shops that did it for you. Speaking of shops, the discount they demand is a pain and cuts into your income but lots of people see those guitars. There is a maker here in Granada who refuses to give any substantial discount to the shops and so has very little international projection. Another maker here has been working and selling for at least 20 years is suddenly (with the economic slump) selling nothing. He has no webpage nor does he use the internet outside of email. I know someone here who has just started, maybe 10 guitars to his name but his webpage makes him look better than any one of us on the forum.
If you want a personal story I can tell you that I am where I am today because of some very clear reasons. Tons of people come to Granada looking for guitars and if you can make a great guitar then it will get seen at least. I learned from someone who was professionally very successful (a great maker and great teacher). My wife was working while I was beginning and that allowed me to quit my other job and make more guitars which is very important. I was using the internet when no one else here was. There are other reasons but talking about my specific philosophy of building probably isn't very helpful.
I don't want to go on and on here, I think you got some good advice or support so far but I didn't see anyone mentioned the classical guitar thing. With the possible exception of Reyes the spaniards all make more classicals than flamencos, you can charge more, the clients are easier to please and know more clearly what they are looking for and for the most part being a non-spaniard is a non-issue. The market is bigger too and there are more shops that sell classicals than flamencos. One last difference is that the classical guitarists are less likely to go after something like Conde without looking around and trying out other stuff. Perhaps none of this is very helpful but basically there are two things that happen, one is that you make choices and that affects your future and the other thing is that you get lucky and/or your philosophy fits with the times. I won the lottery when I met and was able to establish a healthy exhange and friendship with Rolf Eichinger. Hang in there but if the time has come then don't flog a dead horse.
John Ray
Granada
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Date Apr. 17 2011 6:39:20
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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Hi Stephen,
I was only ever in San Francisco once and that was about 35 years ago..
But even then, I found it a bit "cool" and "clubby" (as a single guy)
It was like folk were too cool or too spaced out to get excited over anything and too clubby because unlike other parts of the States I was in, I got a sense of "interested acceptance", but with the rider that I was excluded from the "inner circle" of whichever friends group I was introduced to.
Too much sunshine, too much surfing, too much dope, too much choice, too much exclusive chumminess, too much yawning, too much having an easy life to be impressed by anything IMO.
Maybe things have changed there since then, but that was my impression, so don't anybody tell me my impression was wrong, since I am the one who got the impression...
I don't think I'd live there frankly.
A holiday for a couple of weeks....yeah, sure....but LIVING there, no.
Sorry if members around the "Bay Area" (cool name BTW ) feel insulted or upset, but that's just my view.
I'd haul ass out of there Stephen...maybe to Canada, maybe to Europe and give yourself a break, even for a couple of years.
It can do the world of good and give you a chance to get things in perspective.
cheers,
Ron
ps:
Hey man...move to Kabul, Afghanistan and become the first American Afghani Spanish Guitar Luthier there in the Green Zone!
(Just get used to wearing a flak jacket in yer workshop dude)
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Date Apr. 17 2011 18:13:02
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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McGuire has always been more than receptive, and a few others who are close friends or a few have been supportive, but by and large it's been chilly. I just never said anything because I never wanted to offend anyone. I don't feel I have anything to lose and honestly this out pouring of interest and good wishes from people I only know know on the internet is wild.
There's a saying about California vs. New York- In New York they will stab you in the back, but in California they smile and reach around with the knife.
It's just a saying. No actual stabbing going on here yet. I'm a native Californian and I do notice when I go back East the attitude towards artists is much more serious. San Francisco/ Oakland / Berkeley has four major art schools between them. Usually a person trying to make visual art needs to leave here to get established. It's saturated with students who will go on to be interesting and important artists, but the collector base here is weak. They are not interested in local talent unless you've had a show in Germany or something. The attitude can swing to very provincial, although the august San Franciscans will argue with you about how sophisticated they think they are. This is the Far West and the Bay Area in particular still suffers from a cultural inferiority complex and to a great extent needs to import high culture for validation. Los Angeles to the south does not have this problem, it basically invented itself for good and bad. San Francisco is parochial, yet charming, but all grit and vitality is being weened out of the art scene due to high rents. The Bay Area does not even have a substantial collection of old master paintings any of the museums. A smattering of work between the De Young and the Legion of Honor. You can't look at a good Cezanne here or a Bonnard, because it is not here. There not stunning Degas, it's a painting wasteland by comparison to a great city and it's the embarrassment that no body wants to talk about. Yet Four art schools and a lame timid collector base.
The problem with being a guitar maker is that once you set up your shop, it's difficult to move. You either have to sell off your power tools an buy new ones in the new location of pack them and move them. UUGGH - I have thought of moving to Wash. D.C. in the past few days because I have relatives there and I used to take lessons from Paco de Malaga a long time ago so I know there is flamenco culture there.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 17 2011 18:45:34
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