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RE: Difference between classical and flamenco guitars
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Pali)
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pali
It is a very interesting topic but a bit, let's say "misleading".
Let's see, for example, if I play three different guitars without you seeing them, would you be able to tell them apart? Could you tell me which one is for flamenco and which one is for classical?
I have seen Pepe Romero play classical with a white guitar made of cypresses with a German spruce top and play flamenco with a rosewood guitar and no one could tell which was one or the other ..... if you want to do the test ...
I have done this test on myself. No I absolutely could not tell the difference and they were MY guitars and I had just played each one moments before (had the recording engineer play them back at random). The sound is mainly in the fingers of the player.
However, as a TEACHER, the situation is very black and white. When a student arrives for first classes with a CLASSICAL guitar, there is only so much we can do. The quick save is to purchase a GOLPEADOR....depending on the neck angle and set up at the bridge this simple thing has potential to convert a classical guitar into a functional flamenco one. But upon first learned golpes and compas patterns, if the bridge is too high (10mm or more) there will be physical problems that guitars set up with low bridge (thanks to neck angle) won’t have. I always recommend students to invest in a PROPER flamenco guitar for lots of physical reasons. Of course there are flamenco designed guitars with bad set ups, but generally speaking, it is the SETUP that makes the distinction, and I am not talking about lowering the bone saddle only.
There are not many cypress classical guitars with peg heads unless they are pre Segovia old Torres era instruments. I consider Manuel Ramirez the originator of the proper “flamenco” guitar design as distinct from a classical guitar. So, looks, and set up are the main factors.
The bridge height on your rosetteless classical guitar pictured above is too high. Get ready for this fun like my Sanchis (9-10mm) gave me:
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (1)
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Date Apr. 9 2021 18:10:56
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
If I invited 3 of my friends, all top flamenco professionals, to play behind a curtain and you did not know which guitar they are going to play, (but all of them begin by playing my guitar), could you tell that it was the same guitar? Would you be influenced if I had told you that two of them habitually play Condes and the other plays Bernal? If they repeated, playing their own guitars, could you identify them?
No, I couldn't.* That's why I wondered whether the way to gauge the difference between a classical and a flamenco was more in the "playability" than in the sound. I don't know whether "playability" is the right word, but I just mean how the instrument feels to the player. But if Ricardo did that test of playing the instruments himself and he couldn't tell the difference between a classical and a flamenco, then I'm sure I wouldn't either.
So what's the difference then? Is it just that a classical set-up like a flamenco doesn't hold up well over time or something? I get that the difference is relatively marginal, since at some point the two were presumably the same thing. But at some point they must've diverged and become more distinctive, no? Or is this all just a clever ploy by the luthiers here to make us pay more money? 
*actually, take that back. I'm pretty sure I could see the bright orange glow of a Conde even through a thick curtain.
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Date Apr. 9 2021 18:36:13
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ernandez R
Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pali
It is a very interesting topic but a bit, let's say "misleading".
Let's see, for example, if I play three different guitars without you seeing them, would you be able to tell them apart? Could you tell me which one is for flamenco and which one is for classical?
I have seen Pepe Romero play classical with a white guitar made of cypresses with a German spruce top and play flamenco with a rosewood guitar and no one could tell which was one or the other ..... if you want to do the test ...
I have done this test on myself. No I absolutely could not tell the difference and they were MY guitars and I had just played each one moments before (had the recording engineer play them back at random). The sound is mainly in the fingers of the player.
However, as a TEACHER, the situation is very black and white. When a student arrives for first classes with a CLASSICAL guitar, there is only so much we can do. The quick save is to purchase a GOLPEADOR....depending on the neck angle and set up at the bridge this simple thing has potential to convert a classical guitar into a functional flamenco one. But upon first learned golpes and compas patterns, if the bridge is too high (10mm or more) there will be physical problems that guitars set up with low bridge (thanks to neck angle) won’t have. I always recommend students to invest in a PROPER flamenco guitar for lots of physical reasons. Of course there are flamenco designed guitars with bad set ups, but generally speaking, it is the SETUP that makes the distinction, and I am not talking about lowering the bone saddle only.
There are not many cypress classical guitars with peg heads unless they are pre Segovia old Torres era instruments. I consider Manuel Ramirez the originator of the proper “flamenco” guitar design as distinct from a classical guitar. So, looks, and set up are the main factors.
The bridge height on your rosetteless classical guitar pictured above is too high. Get ready for this fun like my Sanchis (9-10mm) gave me:
Ricardo, I’ve seen you post this photo before but dont recall the backstory as to why you were not playing your Condi?
HR
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Apr. 10 2021 7:20:34
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Pali
Posts: 148
Joined: Apr. 4 2021
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to ernandez R)
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¡Bonito hacha! Ella es tu favorita pero ¿por qué?
It is not a new guitar, it is restored, it is from 1995, I have had it on loan for a long time to teachers at the conservatory, they return it to me in perfect condition but I like to leave it as new and there I was giving it a touch of shellac and adjusting it a little. I have been able to sell it many times but it has something that I love, softness and comfort, sustain, power ... something that makes me not get rid of it.
I have played again a short time ago, when I made a very important decision for me and my family and I did it with this one, made in 2008 in rosewood with a cedar top that I also love.
I think I have more pictures, now I will look for them....
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Attachment (4)
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Date Apr. 10 2021 8:38:46
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Pali
Posts: 148
Joined: Apr. 4 2021
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to Piwin)
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Your opinion is very respectable.
I feel differently, I never give my opinion of a guitar until I play it and register it well by the fingerboard and I never get carried away by aesthetics, photographs, rules, measurements .....
It is curious and instinctive, people who play never look at the instrument in a first contact, first they sit down then they tune it and play and play and play ...... then they look at the label, aesthetics, ornaments, mouth, head ... finally pass judgment ......
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Date Apr. 10 2021 15:10:14
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Difference between classical and... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
The main difference between a classical guitar and flamenco guitar is that classical guitars sound crappy when you do a rasgueado on them.
Based on personal experience and the few instruments I play regularly, I tend to agree.
The spruce/Indian '73 Romanillos #407 produces quite respectable flamenco picado and arpegio, but rasgueados are not up to the standard of 2 flamenca blancas and one flamenca negra. The Romanillos rasgueados are not as edgy and percussive.
I have some of the same impression from the LP Mario Escudero recorded on a Hauser, though he sounds very good on it.
Neither the '67 Ramirez cedar/cypress nor the '82 Arcangel Fernandez spruce/cypress is particularly happy doing Romantic era classical pieces. They require flamenco right hand to produce their best sound, and don't have the tonal variety of the Romanillos, the spruce/Brazilian Abel Garcia, the '91 spruce/Brazilian Contreras "doble tapa," and the cedar/Indian Blackshear "Rodriguez." All four of the latter produce excellent tone with a light tirando touch, but the blancas don't. The blancas take more force to get them going well, and when they do they produce a brilliant and edgy sound.
About the only one that plays both flamenco and classical with good results for me is the Blackshear spruce/Indian "Reyes" model, but its flamenco performance is better than its classical. It doesn't quite have the depth or variety of tone that the classicals do, though it is perfectly serviceable in classical repertoire. It is excellent when played with flamenco technique.
But I won't generalize from this small sample to guitars in general. There are a great variety of instruments on offer.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 10 2021 22:52:43
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