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Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
It's Manuel Mairena in the video, not his brothers Antonio or Curro Mairena,
Ooops sorry, you are right. But anyway, great, then I still have a chance to prove it to Romerito.
Hopefully my point was made anyway.
After learning how the cante lines of verse "fit" the compas accompanying baile, I was quite surprised how things worked out for the old masters of solea: Chocolate, Agujeta, Caracol, Fernanda, etc, in terms of when in time the verses start or end, and observing the way the master accomp. guitarists deal with it, I realized what was going on is not so rigid as I was doing for baile. So upon encountering singers like Chozas or Oliver, I am not so concerned about they way they sqeeze letras in over the solea compas, even if it is more off the wall then the more professional singers. I agree about how singers take readings off of accents, but not necessarily that singers in general have BETTER compas then the guitarists. Some singers start a phrase on 4 or 11 and I can tell they read an accent like 3 as 12, or sometimes the 10 as 12. I mean I sense that knowing where the normal placement of a verse "should" be. Only reason it works out is because the guitar does clear accents all along.
But by "should" I mean square box. The vast majority of good solea singing it seems to me is NOT square box. So in a sense a "free" melody on top of solid compas of the guitar IS what happens a lot of times. That is how I see that they impose things like Fandango naturales over the solea compas as well. A free melody manipulated over the compas. Even I have heard some singers do cantiñas this way. So long as baile is not involved it seems totally acceptable. To me it seems that over time, professionals singing for baile evolved our present concepts of what singing in or out of compas really means.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
quote:
What do you think about Paco? Listen to early Camaron stuff and it is Paco that keeps the solea in compas. Not that Camaron did not have compas, but when not singing for dance, he often resolved in odd places. Paco followed him without losing compas.
In my opinion, early Camaron sounded even better with Paco Cepero on accompanying guitar than with Paco de Lucia. More aire. Camaron's cante and Cepero's toque seemed more organically a whole. Great stuff.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Is it possible that flamencos (even ones who began late but heard it all their lives) hear things differently?
Hi Rom,
I think they mainly hear it in their heads as a song.
I don't think they worry about compás nearly as much as foreigners do.
I think solo guitarristas hear the stuff as a rhythm with notes overlaid, so they tend to stick pretty much to rhythmic compás.
I think when both singer and guitarrista meet, then there's a compromise.
A bit of give and take....and anyway, so long as it sounds good and feels good and everybody at the party likes it, then who cares?
(Ya gotta remember, that on a lot of those singer/guitarrista vids in private parties, everybody looks three sheets to the wind anyway... )
I think when it comes to recording in a studio, then everybody cleans up their act.
Also, I think they take every opportunity to tell the foreign aficionado that they haven't got it quite right, that it takes years of living in the environment, speaking the language, eating the food, drinking the wine, making love to the women....etc...etc...mainly because it's "their thing" (cosa nuestra) and in this world of iphones and facebook and globalization and ****, want it to remain so, even though they secretly enjoy the economic advantages of a foreign and worldwide interest.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
quote:
What is meant by free? I get what your saying but there are all kinds of clues in the cante. For example, many solea cantes begin right after beat twelve and the first few syllables culminate in an accented syllable that either lands on 3, or anticipates it with an accent. We could say that is free, but it is not free in the same way as taking fifteen seconds to sing those same notes with a huge melisma and no accent on the final syllable to clue the guitarist in.
Well first let me explain what is "square box". Each line of verse of a typical solea, let’s say alcala, is around 8 syllables. Let’s make those syllables rhythm (they are anyway) and simplify the rhythm of the melody to quarter notes. There is usually a breath, so any solea can start on count 1, pause on 4 or 6, then end on 9, giving the clue for chord change for count 10-12. Each musical phrase can work that way, each compas, each of the 3 or 4 line letras taking one compas of time. Now if the singer starts on the & of 1, does 8ths not quarters (&2&) and pauses after 3 syllables, we get count 3 open for the chord accent (as you described as a "clue"). This is one way a singer can manipulate and sing rhythmic, yet as you can see ahead it is still, or will be still "in the box" so to speak, with the next 5 syllables adding up to the chord change (10).
If a singer adds a half compas (prima de me alma), well it goes out of the box by a half compas. Ok not a big deal if you understand how to put that chord change later (always your G7-C chord move por arriba), on count 3 specifically, then we are STILL in the box. Get me? Just the singer will then resolve his last 3 syllables later, so sort of out of the box but since it is the end, not a big deal. For baile, this CAN become a problem but need not be a big problem.
OK, now what is OUT of the box or "free" to sing how one feels in the compas. Well, the first thing that happens will be when a phrase, the same exact music and syllables structure, starts on count 7. Well we know from buleria it is cool because it is just a half compas. But imagine our inner clocks that have already mapped the OTHER 6 beat feel starting on count 1. It feels weird and first reaction of guitarists that play for baile or just are learning is "this guys is CROSSED!!!". Or worse, they may feel this singer simply does not sing in compas at all. A good player can deal with it though it feels uncomfortable. Are you ok with this Romerito? It is quite common and can happen on any line of verse. The main problem ones are when it happens in the 2 line but nice when a half compas is added (prima de alma) cuz we land pretty on 10. But on the opening line it feels like the singer is messing with you.
OK when a singer is crossed all the phrasing of the melody is shifted over 6 beats (or so), yet a good player won't break the compas in half. Carrion does. Not many others I have noticed. Singers that exemplify this are too numerous to mention.
Ok what next can happen out of the box, are singers that start on count 11 ish. This is also common, and again the phrasing all shifts over. Imagine this coupled with random lines of verse starting on 7, all in the same letra. This is also common. Oliver de triana I noticed doing this as his norm (granted in Rito his guitarist sucked and broke the compas all the time every verse! But if you ignore and count compas by the melody of his voice, it still works fine). Perrate de Utrera was another doing that in Rito I think, but with pedro peña marking clear compas it comes off nice and pretty.
Ok after those typical things you have more strange things like singers starting from 9 or 3 or 4, or 8 etc any random line of verse. Shall we say these singers don't know compas or accidentally lose compas at these times? Here is a concrete example to look at.
Ok, first line, in the box, a little stretched on the second line but Ok. The repeat of the that part is the same, in the box. What a square. Now the cambio (G-C part) comes in at 0:36....that is count 9 baby. Way out there. Now he repeats the same phrase starting on count 1 like it "should" be, and you can see how darn out of compas it was before. But is that really "wrong" or does he have the freedom to start where ever he wants? What if morao broke the compas on that phrase and let it feel like instead of starting on 9 it started on 1? Would the singer notice or be "mad" about it?
Next verse nice and boxed in until the repeat of the cambio at 1:49 he starts it on 7 instead of 1.
So even Mairena has some freedom to over lay the phrasing as he feels, and the guitarist like Morao feels a need to keep the compas in 12 and just change chords at the end of phrasing (play it as it lies like in golf) either on 3 or 10 mainly. So if he has the freedom, and then you go check out Fernanda doing the same types of things, starting in weird spots and the guitar just holds it together, then why can't we say solea IS somewhat of a free cante that is overlaid in potentially infinite ways on the 12 beat compas???
Now some folks will say, no, what mairena did there was WRONG and perfect example of out of compas singing. I am fine with accepting both view points because, as I said all along I view singing from two camps. Pro/boxed in vs amature/puro/free. The guitarist makes all the distinction if in the end the math is properly in or out of compas.
So the answer to second question, they will hear the phrase differently depending which of the two camps they are coming from, not necessarily if they are from spain or not.
I vaugly remember seeing videos of Bernarda ripping into a cante line in the middle of a falseta in the middle of a compas to boot...... Does not bother me at all. I think it's interesting to see how the guitarist fields it. Agujetas did the same thing when he sang here last year, although his cousin did it more. I think Agujetas had it more under contorl an the cousn was more like a wild pitcher. ( to use an American analogy)
I also wonder why siguiriyas it's ok to move in an out of "compas", stretch and pull it like taffy, and then in solea people freakout when they hear it.
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
But is that really "wrong" or does he have the freedom to start where ever he wants?
Freedom but not free-form. That's what makes it interesting.
quote:
What if morao broke the compas on that phrase and let it feel like instead of starting on 9 it started on 1? Would the singer notice or be "mad" about it?
Yeah, it would have been considered wrong, at least at that party. Mairena delivers the syllables in perfect compás, starting on beat 9 and leaving a gap for the accented third beat:
"Lo-que-tú-ha-ces-con....migo"
"9-10-11-12-1-2...."
There's nothing libre about that.
Your square-box idea is the most basic way of aligning verse and compás but, as you know, the interesting stuff happens in the variations on that scheme. It's what all the good singers are trying to do, although they might begin with that basic scheme. It's not a perfect analogy, but the idea could be compared to palmas for bulerías: You could just do 12-3-7-8-10 but you'd much rather do contras and play with variations of 1-2, 4-5, etc.
In addition to the names you mentioned (Chocolate, Agujeta, Caracol and Fernanda), the best IMO were Juan Talega and obviously Mairena. Rancapino does a good job of developing the cantes of Juan Talega. In relation to what we're talking about at this point on the thread, Tío Borrico and La Periñaca were incredibly good at matching letra and compás in unusual ways. But I have to repeat that the all-time best at that is Manuel Moneo (and most of his family). I haven't seen any videos on YouTube of him singing like he does now.
quote:
the guitarist like Morao feels a need to keep the compas in 12
And notice how he taps on 6 and 12 to keep things on course, like Melchor.
What I consider to be rubato lasts just a fraction of a second. Anything more than that is something else.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
Mairena delivers the syllables in perfect compás, starting on beat 9 and leaving a gap for the accented third beat:
"Lo-que-tú-ha-ces-con....migo"
"9-10-11-12-1-2...."
There's nothing libre about that.
Well I thought it would be clear that because he did it different on the repeat, that it was, relative to the more squared version, "out" of compas, or shifted out of compas, or crossed...however you want to see it. What I mean by "libre" is that the phrase of singing is not bound to a specific place in compas cycle. Compas cycle is meter. "Libre" means no meter, so cante alone with no compas reference can be seen as "free". Conversely anything sung over a steady rhythm is not literally "free". Lets take a more close look at the square version that happens at :56.
Ok the actual rhythm is not perfect in compas quarter notes. They are done as a 5 tuplet of quarter notes. So 5 syllables in the space of 4 beats. The 6th syllable lands on the 5th beat, even though he starts on 1. "Lo que tu-(ha) he-cho con.....". Now this musical phrase makes sense, though it is synchopated, as square box to me, as it starts on 1 and ends on 5, book ended neatly by 2 strong accents 12 and 6. Makes perfect sense, even though the count 3 accent falls between the two syllables "he"-and "cho". And considering his phrasing of MOST letras in general he starts here (on 1) most of the time, it seems this phrase is the INTENTION of the singer.
Now back it up to :36. Other then the fact he says hace instead of (ha) hecho, it is the same exact phrase, musically, rhythmically, lyrically, etc. Yet, it is done on beat 9. The same 5 tuplet rhythm crosses count 9-12 and "con" lands on 1. (focus on the guitar if you can't hear that).
Now if it was beat 7 he started, it is still crossed, but we accept the symmetry of half compas singing as not TOO crazy. But it is double-crossed so to speak, because the musical feeling is no longer book ended as before by strong accents. And between "ha-ce" we have a weak accent to boot. No rhythmical symmetry in the phrase. I can't see how someone can argue this was all planned and deliberate (ie not "free") when he himself showed the other way to sing it, starting in the "correct" spot at :56.
I am trying to point out that the singer has a "freedom" to do this, and the guitar is the reference that tells us the phrase was started on 9, not 1 that one time. This throws out the window Romerito's statement that the cante has "clues" that tell you where in the compas the singer is. Only those clues matter when we are USED to always hearing it a certain way. Then when we encounter a singer doing it different we say "oh, that is not how it goes" or "the singers compas is wrong".
The more I have investigated this phenomenon (random starting points and shifting of phrasing that is miss-allighned with guitar compas) the more I am inclined to accept the fact that the cante that is done this way (majority when not associated with baile) is actually LIBRE with the guitar pointing out the reference points by the way it accompanies, (be it strict tempo in 12, or rubato, or cut in half, or even totally out).
As an accompanist, I have tried to point out to others learning on the forum, with our cante minus guitar accomp examples, that it doesn't matter really how a singer phrases, there is still a logical way to deal with it AND keep compas. (I like the analogy above of how we must "field" it). Moneo was accused of singing out of compas, by those that follow the square box camp. I demoed that he was not out and it was a typical way to sing. BUT NOT FOR BAILE!
So from the square box view point, we can have the singer sing alone, no guitar or palmas....nada.....then suddenly the whole group comes in all at once BOOOM at the proper place and tempo. This is a cool thing to experience but requires a preconceived notion of the exact precise timing of the lyric syllables and melody (could be all contra but still we all feel the same thing). This can't be done with Mairenas example above. Hope my point is clear that I am saying even STILL, what mairena does is cool and exemplary cante rhythm, and many singers unfairly get written off as "out of compas" singers simply because they don't fall in the square box category because they do too much of what mairena did at :36, vs what he did at :56.
Just a thought, but when you listen to cante without guitar it seems like you can be more accepting of a loose open ended hearing of the timing, syllables in relation to in the box compas. As soon as guitar comes in, it gives the cante a context to live in and there is an expectation or even a musical mannerism that the ear wants to find to latch onto. If you can't give up that expectation, it tends to sound wrong. The guitar part has a strong role and if the melody lines don't coincide with a specific chord for example that seems like kit should be there in truly boxy sequence, then the ear rejects that. Like the ear wants to say the cante is wrong, but it's more like tension between the the guitar and voice which will eventually be resolved amicably.
I'm not an accompanist by any stretch of the imagination, but this is kind of what I get out of this.
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Well I thought it would be clear that because he did it different on the repeat, that it was, relative to the more squared version, "out" of compas, or shifted out of compas, or crossed...however you want to see it
I think we probably agree, but I wouldn't use the word libre because of the implication of free-form styles (fandangos, cantes mineros, malagueñas and granaínas), and I'd never consider it to be out of compás or "crossed" (again, because of the implications).
quote:
I am trying to point out that the singer has a "freedom" to do this, and the guitar is the reference that tells us the phrase was started on 9, not 1 that one time.
Yes, we seem to agree on the "freedom" part, but I think Mairena meant to do what he did and that the guitar provided the right context because Morao was able to recognize what Mairena was doing. I would have recognized that as starting on beat 9 with or without the guitar.
quote:
I can't see how someone can argue this was all planned and deliberate (ie not "free") when he himself showed the other way to sing it, starting in the "correct" spot at :56.
I think it was planned a second before he sang it. It's characteristic of flamenco to repeat with a variation, in order to avoid doing the exact same thing. It often happens in the words, too, as we've seen in "lo que tú haces conmigo no me lo merezco yo" and "lo que tú has hecho conmigo no lo merecía yo."
quote:
"con" lands on 1.
You're right, I missed that.
quote:
This throws out the window Romerito's statement that the cante has "clues" that tell you where in the compas the singer is. Only those clues matter when we are USED to always hearing it a certain way. Then when we encounter a singer doing it different we say "oh, that is not how it goes" or "the singers compas is wrong".
I agree with what Romerito said about clues, although I think of them as "cues." When the singer starts at an unusual point, I listen to the timing of the first few syllables and try to figure out how that fits the rhythm. Tempo changes from one cante to another (in this video toward the end), so that kind of listening is a necessary part of following the cante. I'm sure you do it all the time as an experienced professional. That's why I really don't understand the last two sentences quoted above. For me, the whole point of cante is interpreting things on the fly like that.
quote:
...I am inclined to accept the fact that the cante that is done this way (majority when not associated with baile) is actually LIBRE with the guitar pointing out the reference points by the way it accompanies, (be it strict tempo in 12, or rubato, or cut in half, or even totally out).
Maybe some singers rely on the guitar to make sense of what they're doing, but I think that good singers of soleá have clear compás all the way through and that the guitarist has to be careful not to get in the way (at least while he's singing).
quote:
...then suddenly the whole group comes in all at once BOOOM at the proper place and tempo. This is a cool thing to experience but requires a preconceived notion of the exact precise timing of the lyric syllables and melody (could be all contra but still we all feel the same thing). This can't be done with Mairenas example above.
You seem to be saying that the "boom" is only possible if everyone listening has already heard many times the same specific alignment of verse and compás. I don't agree with that, as you may have guessed from my "interpreting on the fly" comment above. For one thing, when you use a different letra for the same cante, things are not going to line up the same. I must be misunderstanding you. Mairena doesn't sing particularly clearly in this video, but it doesn't make much sense to theorize about whether or not people at the party were able to follow him all the way through the performance. Obviously, Morao was able to follow him and we can assume that he wasn't the only one.
quote:
...many singers unfairly get written off as "out of compas" singers simply because they don't fall in the square box category because they do too much of what mairena did at :36, vs what he did at :56.
Well, I guess it depends on who's being criticized and by whom. I think that (1) very few singers are able to do what Mairena was doing there, (2) nobody ever does it too much, and (3) they wouldn't be criticized for it even if they were able to do it a lot. I've heard a few people try to write off Juan Talega because he sometimes started on 7-8, but those people didn't really know much about flamenco, aside from the fact that they wanted to write off Juan Talega. On the other hand, I've heard a lot more knowledgeable people rightly criticize the weak compás of certain singers. No hard facts there, just my impression based on what people say and what I hear, but that's the way I see it. To be fair, I have to say that I haven't listened to those recordings of Manuel Oliver in years. I used to really hate them, but I had to go over a few of the tracks recently for the last revision of the soleá cante page and I actually liked his delivery on some of the cantes, but it had more to do with the sound of his voice than the rhythm.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
I think it was planned a second before he sang it.
I think he either meant to start on 7 and was late, or he was just totally un planned and didn't care where he started cuz he knows morao is there holding it down anyway. Either way I feel the intended timing was as occured at :56.
quote:
I'm sure you do it all the time as an experienced professional. That's why I really don't understand the last two sentences quoted above. For me, the whole point of cante is interpreting things on the fly like that.
Many times the guitar is rushing for singers when it is just the two vs the opposite, dragging of tempo. My professional experience is more often for dance so I have to be more aware of NOT following tempo changes not dictated by the dancer specifically, no matter what the singer is doing. The meaning of my quote "we would say the singer's compas is wrong" I mean, in context of square box mentality. In the Mairena example, if what happened at :36 happened in a rehearsal with a dancer it would be like NO, we have to stop and do it again, because the dancer needs to know how the compas of the singing will be in order to react to it. It can be very "leashed" and uncomfortable feeling for certain singers that are used to more freedom. If a singer chooses to just sing like how he wants, the dancer won't hire him or chose a different dance, one that he sings "more in compas".
quote:
You seem to be saying that the "boom" is only possible if everyone listening has already heard many times the same specific alignment of verse and compás. I don't agree with that, as you may have guessed from my "interpreting on the fly" comment above. For one thing, when you use a different letra for the same cante, things are not going to line up the same. I must be misunderstanding you.
It need not be the same verse even. The timing is clear to "square box people" as I am describing. As in romerito's example of Rancampino doing tiritiri tran for alegrias off of 4 instead of 10. For a dancer and group of flamencos, that is CROSSED and if he started ALONE with no reference everyone would cut his compas in half and give the 3 or 7 or whatever we wanted to come in on, all together the same at once. Because in everyone's internal map, that melody starts on 10. Could also happen with a colatilla, same melody, no matter what the words are. So if you go back and put a guitar or palmas and realize he meant to start off of 4, well, the square group will say "ok that guy is singing out of compas or crossed". So the idea of a group coming in all together is no good for singers that want to shift melodies around how they want.
Interpreting on the fly as you describe means you are thinking from the other camp where singing is more "free" as I have been talking about. Just means you are not a square box fan.
quote:
(1) very few singers are able to do what Mairena was doing there, (2) nobody ever does it too much, and (3) they wouldn't be criticized for it even if they were able to do it a lot. I've heard a few people try to write off Juan Talega because he sometimes started on 7-8, but those people didn't really know much about flamenco, aside from the fact that they wanted to write off Juan Talega.
Well that gets to the heart of my point of disagreement. I would say many singers can and do what mairena did, at least old puro singers pre camaron/and not guys that sing for dance. In other words, MOST good singers. And those ones do do it A LOT to boot. (would take forever but we could go through youtube and point out each off sung verse I mean....yikes!!!....but in the end "a lot" as a description would be valid). As for point 3, who would be the critics exactly? I say more square people would criticize as the others would not. Writing off Talega for singing off the 7 (as I talked about is out of compas but not SO bad) is a perfect example of more square box thinking.
My point is those critics have a right as it is true it is crossed singing. But, it just shows they are from the square camp, and it is not fair they do it in such a myopic way because probably we can find a dozen singers they DO like that did it the exact freaking same way!
I reviewed tons of solea the other day on rito y geografia. Do you know how many singers sang solea totally in the box, never starting a line on 7 or elsewhere? ZERO. Do you know how many singers I have worked with that sang for top bailaoras from spain (the likes of Tati truco Carmela Greco etc) that sang starting from 7 or anything out of the box like that? Exactly ZERO.
So my point all along is before we can go and decide who is playing out of compas for singing or which singing is more in compas then another, we must first decide which camp we are coming from and analyze appropriately.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Beginning about 1:38 Duquende is rhythmically in compas but his tercios are not square. This underlines what I am going to call the "You say Toh-May-Toh-I say Toh-Mah-Toh" problem. So he is "free" in some sense but strict in a rhythmic sense. This in no way makes my claim irrelevant. There are still clues there. The question is if one can hear those clues. More exxperienced guitarists will hear them perhaps differently...or at least, react differently.
Good example Romerito of the singing being crossed in the half compas. It starts off of 10 like normal but he repeats a phrase in a way that the 12 feel crosses and he keeps that all the way through. The guitar even does an accent on 9 for the note that goes up there "ayyyyy!" at 1:56, yet the math does not break (we baile players know that feeling as 3 in the compas). This is cantiñas and the melody lines up different then solea, but the same idea can apply to solea and all the descriptions I made above regarding singing that starts from 7. Duquende is "half square". Not too crazy, but driving dancers nuts.
Perhaps if Carrion was playing here instead, at that "ayyy" part you would notice he might try to cut the compas in half as he did for Clavel at the start of the thread. Would it be wrong? For most yes...for some others no. I honestly don't think Duquende would care or even notice.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
quote:
I don't think anything Carrion does is "wrong." If it were he would not be the sought-after accompanist he is.
Exactly.
Well, I counted it and he ends on 4, half compas. But I count accents, 12,3,6,9. He tugs on that bass string and eats a few beats in between accents. You can also call that rushing. I will give a time run down:
Starting at 2:00 he plays a golpe and brush strums to 3. The golpe is 12, the brush is 2 and the end of the chord is 3. then again at 6 the golpe, brush on 8 to count 9, next 12 golpe is at 2:05, it comes kind of rushed and earlier then expected. Then again brush strum which is 3 again, next golpe is 6 at 2:08, brush strum, grabs string to fix here 2:09, then golpe of 12 at 2:10....but he feels this as count 6 and closes on 10 at 2:12. Totally in compas the whole time, though not metronomic AND cut in half. could be his mind was on the tuning problem
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I think he either meant to start on 7 and was late, or he was just totally un planned and didn't care where he started cuz he knows morao is there holding it down anyway.
Okay, that makes it clear to me where you're coming from.
quote:
I reviewed tons of solea the other day on rito y geografia. Do you know how many singers sang solea totally in the box, never starting a line on 7 or elsewhere? ZERO. Do you know how many singers I have worked with that sang for top bailaoras from spain (the likes of Tati truco Carmela Greco etc) that sang starting from 7 or anything out of the box like that? Exactly ZERO.
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
If you think of compás the way traditional singers do, it all becomes clear. The compás of cante (as opposed to guitar) is not modules of 12, but rather a continuous band.
Generally speaking, the issue you're all trying to sort out is not musical, but geographical and generational.
Generational, because until Fosforito, singers didn't contemplate compás as neat modular units, and even today he is criticized for overly intellectualizing compás. Borrico isn't singing out of compás when he begins a line of soleá on 7-8-9 instead of 1-2-3. Nor is Fernanda. They are exhibiting extraordinarily instinctive compás that was one of the great joys of listening to cante before click tracks came along, and musicians started telling singers how to sing. It's the difference between having the butcher cut your pork-chops to order, or picking up a styrofoam pack of four (all things flamenco can be explained via food).
Geographical, because the march-like pace (not speed but pace) of soleá por bulería is the normal pace for soleá in Utrera, but not in Jerez for example, where soleá is phrased and rubatized (if that word exists).
Listen to the recording of Paco accompanying Mairena in La Unión, an amazing generational encounter, the old lion of a singer, and the new guitar hot-shot. Paco was wise and knowledgeable enough to accompany Mairena's singing perfectly, without forcing him into compás modules the singer was not accustomed to or interested in. It doesn't mean Mairena is singing out of compás, it means Paco is an expletive deleted genius. So was Mairena.
A few interesting points, but the guitarist is way out of touch regarding bulerías. Guitarists under a certain age...50-ish??...no longer beat the foot in the way shown, but rather in twos: 2-4-6-8-10-12 etc.
Before bulerías became wildly popular (starting around the 1960s), sixes were the order of the day, and beating on 1-2, 4-5 was fine. When twelves took over (with sixes still part of the mix), that beating became less relevant (unless you're into the mind-game of doing something with your foot that is divorced from what you're playing). Paco de Lucía is one of the last to have learned that way, and still switches back and forth (with his foot) between 1-2, 4-5 and 2-4-6-8-10-12.
One last thing: except during falsetas, please remember to let the singer lead the way.
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Do you know how many singers I have worked with that sang for top bailaoras from spain (the likes of Tati truco Carmela Greco etc) that sang starting from 7 or anything out of the box like that? Exactly ZERO. 
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