Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
[Deleted]
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
  
XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
|
 RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
Regarding rules: It seems you have to be a cultural insider to be accepted above a certain level. Conversely people mentioned the "non" spanish police, which might not like things that the insiders do. So, to me it seems there is NO WAY that you can assure you do things correctly for everybody, according to the above rules. What about following offer:
We dont care anymore about cultural insiders, police, what ever. We just judge things openly according to our tastes. Because thats what we do anyway. The rules we agree to are the effect of our taste anyway, not the cause (if you would be fan of an artform without liking it, that would be pretty crazy). We dont try to convince others with rules or arguments, which are in no way objective anyway. If people can enjoy something like THAT at 2:00, and be considered experienced accompanists in this artform, then obviously the rules are worth nothing.
I did not enjoy it the least, because my tastes are mainly musically based, not cultural or letra or whatever. I dont even speak spanish or understand the letra.
_____________________________
Фламенко
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 9 2011 9:05:03
 |
|
Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
|
|
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
Hey Rom,
I understand where you're coming from when everyone is shouting in one ear "The compás is sacrosanct and in the other ear others are shouting "yeah, but sometimes not." 
It's puzzling and annoying.
I've got to admit, I can't recall hearing anything like that happening on LPs or CDs...but maybe I haven't looked hard enough?
A few years ago I used to watch programmes of "live" performances from various peñas in Jerez on the TV station Ondajerez.
I used to keep a little cassette recorder running, fed from the line-out socket on the audio card so I could playback some stuff I liked later.
The audio quality was horrible since it was still on dial-up Internet, but it was good enough for learning falsetas.
Now all these artists were experienced (some famous) Jerezanos(as), but man...you ought to have heard some of the compás violations that went on...
yet nobody got lost and everyone stuck together like glue.
I was totally puzzled. These were not like extra 6's or half compases, but odd stuff, like an extra 3.
I would slow the questionable part down and tap it out while counting to confirm that this was indeed the case.
Now, I had to ask myself...who is right or wrong?
A bunch of experienced Flamencos, (some Gitanos) having a juerga in the heart of Jerez...
Or some pathetic "white boy" in Scotland sitting with headphones on playing the stuff back at half speed and tapping on a piece of paper with a pencil?
So I've just learned to live with it and always try to play in compás myself, as I know at least this can not be wrong.
cheers,
Ron
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 9 2011 10:04:09
|
|
NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
|
|
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
Most of what he does is to evoke the finer moments of his brother's cante, usually with the same letras and the same way of using his voice, but without any kind of rhythmic rigor, at least not until some kind of obvious pattern emerges. Carrión will also lengthen and shorten ideas at will (especially Melchor's falsetas), so neither of them are good subjects for this kind of observation, in my opinion. Do they actually "get away with" this kind of performance? In some parts of Spain people might not notice anything wrong, but I'm very sure that in other parts people would not like it at all.
In any case, my description of his art is based on what I've seen in recent years, and I'm referring to his soleás. He's now over 70 and has been very ill in these recent years, so maybe his sense of compás used to be better in the past.
quote:
When you're performing the #1 rule is - don't stop.
I disagree: The most important quality in these styles is the consistency of the compás and an appropriate tempo for the singer. Obviously, consistency involves not stopping, so you might be saying the same thing with different words.
quote:
I have noticed the compas going out the window in quite a few very old cante recordings that i have. I just accept it for what it is, "old school heavy Flamenco with the compas out the window"
How old are the recordings? Who's singing and who's accompanying? If you're talking about 78 rpm disks, there are a number of recordings of good singers accompanied by guitarists who didn't have very good technique or any sense of compás (Pepe el de La Matrona with Gaspar). Some of the better guitarists back then were contracted by record companies to hire and accompany all of the label's singers, and that can lead to undesirable situations. Of these "house" guitarists, Niño Ricardo is the only one I can think of right now who was from Andalusia, but he was still very young when he worked for Regal. In any case, you can hardly expect solid compás from certain singers. Pepe Marchena was great at some cantes but not so good at soleá and other styles (unless of course you feel otherwise).
quote:
Now, I had to ask myself...who is right or wrong?
A bunch of experienced Flamencos, (some Gitanos) having a juerga in the heart of Jerez...
Or some pathetic "white boy" in Scotland sitting with headphones on playing the stuff back at half speed and tapping on a piece of paper with a pencil?
I've seen some people mess up the compás like that, but, if we're talking about artists with good compás, I think what usually happens is that the guitarist will lose the compás and the singer will adjust to that. In my opinion, most of these artists are trying to match verse with rhythm in unusual ways but with perfect compás, and that is usually very difficult. Manuel Moneo is probably the best I've heard in that sense. I think those artists with solid compás and the guy with the pencil and headphones spent years doing the same thing in different ways, and that one should never underestimate the analytical capacity or rhythmic precision of certain gitanos, despite their appearance and demeanor. You'd be surprised to know who's studied recordings!
quote:
So I've just learned to live with it and always try to play in compás myself, as I know at least this can not be wrong.
Ole tú. Aside from the half compás in bulerías, that's the way to go, no matter what some people might say.
_____________________________
Be here now.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 9 2011 11:24:41
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|
Printable Version
