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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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 RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to KMMI77)
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Kris,
It's not surprising. Almost everyone recorded soleá, whether or not they were any good at it, especially in the revival period of the 60s and 70s. One such case was Manuel Oliver, considered to be the maestro of the soleás de Triana. I don't know if it was because of him or the guitarist, but the compás on his recordings is very erratic. Several years ago, I had a friend at the peña in Madrid who was an enthusiastic young aficionado. He liked all the good stuff, was eager to read all the books, etc. One day he asked if I liked Manuel Oliver and didn't believe me when I told him about the erratic compás. We eventually listened to a recording together and I pointed out all the mistakes. We had to rewind a few times for my friend to be able to follow along, but he was shocked! And, in relation to this thread, the point is that he's Spanish.
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Date Apr. 9 2011 12:29:25
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
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Well i just used blood as an example of an expression which is used by people with certain beliefs. I never thought i would have to invest so much posts on explaining that idiom  and it was just an example as i said, because (some) people tend to believe that gitanos never make mistakes and just "have it in the blood", and that is also the connection to this thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
That is a great suggestion.
Is flamenco art or culture, or both? If it is culture...
I was talking about something different, and i even gave a good example by mentioning this thread. You just go on after the quote by jumping to a different topic. Same thing with the language. I dont agree that music is like language, and especially not in terms of how you learn it. Your sentence about starting early is true, but it doesnt neglect that you can have opposing views on the very same performance (even by experienced guys), which was the main point of my post above, which i hope you might want to read.
In any case, if you think you have to be an insider to judge an artistic (or cultural?  ) performance, then you probably will never be able to judge anything? This seems very odd to me and it doesnt exist in reality. People judge music and art by their tastes. Tastes can change directions, but they are always the base of one's judgement.
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Date Apr. 9 2011 16:01:58
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mezzo
Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Adam)
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quote:
And yeah, growing up in a gitano family where your dad and all your aunts and uncles and your little old grandma either sing or play guitar or dance is going to give you a massive head start on any Westerner,
This make sense.
Let's go further. The pregnant girl evolve in a flamenco environment. Surrounded by the compas. Maybe with a lot of private juerga, or just the banal day to day dosis : the legendary flamenco as way of life ya know  . Maybe she sing from time to time...just imagine the compas is everywhere around and inside her.
What happen in the womb?
I read some interesting stuff about this subject and the relationship between the environment and how the prenatal baby receive the vibrations (yeah sound is a vibration no?) and the remember or memories of them after the birth.
So what? Some gitanos (not all!) born with the compas? Maybe!
Not the understanding of it (this would be ridiculous), but with the feel of the compas. Something they already(?) internalize.
I'm not talking about music here, but about COMPAS. For me compas is not an exclusive musical relationship, it's something more!
quote:
I mean, really dude, how many people do you think actually believe that the little gitano babies are born knowing bulería compás?
I don't know. You seems to not really believe in the family environment theory man! You only take one part of it and reject the other part.
Of course the babie have no idea of what is a buleria, no ****ing clue of what is the compas. The intelectual understanding of the compas gonna take years to achieve, but what about the NATURAL feeling of it?
I mean if you believe in God, you believe in Satan too no?
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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Date Apr. 9 2011 23:16:35
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
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Old things, but i have to correct things where i am cited wrongly... I never said there were no rules, but every single one of them depends on a taste. If you know one that doesnt, id be glad to hear. I wont become a professional coz i dont plan to make a living from playing guitar (thats the reason...). I dont know why Japanese arent more famous in flamenco. Maybe because they have the wrong culture, arent immersed enough as you would say? Or they have wrong blood? Or maybe they just arent as good at it as the others? You see, there are different reasons, according to different people. For some its blood (read: hint!). I also never said that immersion into culture doesnt play a role in participating. The higher you get the more it is important. But i reject the idea that a white boy is automatically "wrong" just because of that. Even the best of the best sometimes do make mistakes. Look at the thread where Doitsujin found a compas mistake in La Tumbona for example, and read the posts saying "you probably didnt listen closely...". Ridiculous i say. 
Hence i say, trust your ears, trust your tastes. IMO it is a waist of time to speculate about cultural, immersed, blood, etc. If youre into the culture, you will deal with it. If not, you wont. Flamenco is primarily art, and it can become a culture if youre really into it. But that applies only to so few people (IMO). And the strange thing is, even that doesnt make you a good player. You still have to practice, etc. So i dont think these kind of thoughts are very fruitful.
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Date Apr. 10 2011 9:01:49
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Compás por soleá is the same. We the guitarists would like them to stay completely correct in a fixed compás, but very often they dont. They strech and shorten and we HAVE to follow (that is a rule) Dont give them a 3 accent if they havent arrived. Always wait. The good singers are the ones telling a story and if they meed to float around a bit, then its what thy should do.
I like that, Anders.
OK, to me it's like all the rhythmic palos DO have a rigid compás structure, eg 3,6,8,10,12.
However, the "beat" or "pulse" between these points is not always constant and can depend on the nuances of the singer.
Therefore an independent observer tapping out a steady beat can come to the conclusion that the artists have either added or subtracted beats from the compás cycle.
Imagine "Flamenco Master" running with a speed knob that you can turn up or down at will.
The "marker points" and heavy beats of the compás will still light up at the same places, but the time taken to reach them can vary.
Jeez, this sounds like some Einsteinian explanation..
Ramparts should appreciate it.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Apr. 11 2011 9:15:29
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
quote:
Speaking for myself "yes I can".
No offense, but I think Mark is on to something when he mentions relationship. Can you do that with Manuel Mairena, or Agujetas, or Carmen Linares. It is one thing to accompany some of the greats working in the states but Mairena is on another level.
As for me, although my posts might come off a certain way, I do not police anything. Just have my opinions like anyone else and try to be humble and remeber my teachers as much as possible, even call them when I need to.
Mairena is gone so we can't ever know. As for Agujetas the closest I can relate is when I played for his brother Diego, impromptu in a bar in Sanlucar. Some members of foro were witness and will a test that again YES I was able to get away with it. One other singer observed our juerga and was excited to ask me to play for him in a little gala Gerardo put on a few days later. Now I am not 100% aware if I was properly out of compas as we discuss here, but I can for sure say that I was not thinking to be perfectly IN compas as I actually have to do for baile. Where I have to concentrate to hold it all together with the dancer. I was just following the guy and if he did not like it he would of stopped singing I would think. First I did solea/solxbul for him. Then he wanted siguirya. Same deal there, not sure how out of compas I might have been but not the same I would do for dance. And then he wanted some more so I dont' think my playing was too off putting for him. Perhaps his BROTHER Manuel would have smacked me or something, but I only have this example.
Conversely I played for (in front of) Arcangel a few years back in a juerga some bulerias and he did not want to open his mouth. I passed the guitar to miguel angel cortes and he played this very light jazzy soft buleria and he then sang. His voice was so thin and soft I realized that what I was playing was too over powering. Now I know for the future for this guy I can't play like it is a party, it has to be quiet. But will I ever get a second chance?
So as a foreignor/outsider how did I learn it? By doing it and screwing up and learning from mistakes. This argument seems to keep coming back between us (regarding solea/solxbul), although it may seem different on the surface. My feeling is that flamenco is in two camps as far as singing goes. Square box singing the "professionals" do where the guitar and singer must have it all the same and in the box because to WORK means to play for dance. And the other camp is the more pure version of amature singers that originated the cantes and passed them on. They sing and phrase the letras as they want and the guitar follows. A more pro guitarist naturally wants to stick everything in a box and tries to not break the compas. Guitarist that play more for baile will do this. Some accompanists don't like baile and are more free with they way they accomp.
And some guitarists just do it their own way. Like diego del gastor vs morao or melchor. He plays chunk a chunk compas for everything and keeps it all very even tempo-ed, vs melchor who is more elastic and free with tempo. As a foreignor I have to be careful of who I am playing for and do what I think is appropriate. A dirty look tells me ok he/she doesn't like that so no more. Some players are not paying attention and just keep on with their own way and that is sometimes ok too. The main thing is a singer wants the guitar to be attentive and make the performance come off good. You would be surprised what you can get away with as an outsider if you are simply attentive.
Now one thing I will disagree with Norman (for once) about. Regarding Oliver de Triana. My only reference is Rito y Geo again. To me he was not viewed as a "master" pro singer of Triana solea. On the contrary he was portrayed as a simple pot maker, and as an old timer and amature singer, was the only living representative of the long dead Triana tradition of cante. So, like Chozas, Joaquin's son, M. Torre's Tone deaf son, etc, was another example of amature pure cante that we are lucky to have captured on tape of long dead singing styles. Not exemplary professionals. I would go further to point out that almost none of the singers in Rito, even caracol, sordera, chocolate etc, the heavy pros, did solea phrasing as one would do square box perfect for baile as I understand it.
Even in saura's flamenco movie, check out chocolate's solea for Farruco. He is starting phrases where ever the hell he wants and it works cuz of the way the guitar holds it together, machine like for the sake of dance. So how can we say chocolate is so much more in compas then someone like Oliver or Chozas?
Ok that enough from me, and again all my personal opinions. I know when you go to spain Romerito and start just doing it with different singers, you will see it is not so complex as it seems observing. Learning from doing it is the best and fastest way.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 11 2011 17:00:20
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Look at 2:00. If you watch Clavel alot you see him keep great compas. What accounts for these moments then? It is NOT rubato. The golpes and chords do not seem to reflect the compas accents.
I checked it out in detail. For me it IS a rubato of sorts. He clearly gives the accents. Some beats in between are very rushed (one could say "eaten") then he closes on count 4 which means, obviously HALF COMPAS. Carrion grabs the E string and tugs it here, so he was concerned with tunning. That is perhaps a reason for the rushing/eating beats. But, this is looked at as wrong (the half-compas remate I mean) by many aficionados, but I have seen Carrion do the same before. (puro y jondo solea with Chano). Norman pointed out the examples, few as they are, of half compases in bulerias por solea.
I still don't understand WHY it evloved to be acceptable to cut bulerias, but NOT cut solea, Soleaxbuleria, or even alegrias, when the singer crosses. I mean mathematically and musically it should be ok. ONly Carrion here seems to prove that it actually IS ok, but we don't have many examples. I might have done this for D. Agujetas in spain, but only a recording could prove. I understand the feeling of it, and it SEEMED like that could easily have happened with me. For Jesus here in the states, my fudging of compas would not have been that, rather, the eating the beats thing.
Just to clarify.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 11 2011 17:19:02
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Mairena is gone so we can't ever know.
It's Manuel Mairena in the video, not his brothers Antonio or Curro Mairena, who died decades ago. About three weeks ago, Manuel was still alive but in poor health, as I mentioned.
quote:
Now one thing I will disagree with Norman (for once) about. Regarding Oliver de Triana. My only reference is Rito y Geo again. To me he was not viewed as a "master" pro singer of Triana solea. On the contrary he was portrayed as a simple pot maker, and as an old timer and amature singer, was the only living representative of the long dead Triana tradition of cante. So, like Chozas, Joaquin's son, M. Torre's Tone deaf son, etc, was another example of amature pure cante that we are lucky to have captured on tape of long dead singing styles. Not exemplary professionals.
From the way you describe him it sounds like we agree, although maybe we interpret the word "maestro" (not "master") in different ways. I didn't use the word "professional" in my post, but toward the end of his life Manuel Oliver was singing at all the festivals, making recordings and being interviewed. He's still considered by some to be a point of reference for obscure styles of soleá de Triana. I have to insist that his compás was awful, with added or missing units of two, three or four beats. It's an acceptable thing in some of the styles of soleá from Triana ("del Zurraque") and Córdoba, and there are obviously aficionados who don't mind it, but anybody with just a bit of solid afición knows that it's a fraud because it makes and breaks the cycles of the compás wherever it's convenient. Things develop over time and trends come and go, but soleá is not cante libre. An essential part of its beauty is the way that the compás fits the lines of verse and, in turn, the way the syllables are delivered within the three-beat units. You take that away and it's a cante libre that sounds a little bit like soleá. Strict adherence to compás doesn't have to sound stiff and rigid, unless of course the singer or guitarist feels that way inside because he's uncomfortable with that approach (more on this below).
Anyway, the point I wanted to make is this:
When people get together to sing it's so that they can have a good time. If a singer is going to be uncomfortable with rhythmically merciless accompaniment, sometimes it's a good idea to make allowances for erratic compás, just to keep the party rolling. But many singers, even some of the bad ones, can do amazing things when the guitar (or palmas) projects a strong and steady compás. I've spoken to veteran aficionados about the subject in a broad sense and some feel that singers like Manuel Agujetas, Chocolate and others who aren't known for having rock-solid compás often realign cantes in mid-verse to adjust to the guitar. I'm sure you've seen singers listen closely to the guitar after finishing a line of verse, nodding their approval when the cierre falls into place right where they expected it to. There's another kind of reaction, sort of a smirk that appears on their faces when things don't line up correctly. These are the situations in which I hear good singers adjust to the guitarist. Although none of this can be proven or even demonstrated, and in spite of my vivid imagination and habitual state of drunkeness when listening to cante, my conclusion is that many singers have much stronger rhythm than we guitarists. It's to be expected, as they have nothing in their hands and a voice as an instrument. So, depending on the party, I might try to make allowances for crappy compás (my preference is not to accompany those singers, provided that it isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings), but good things can happen when you insist on sticking to a consistent compás. Of course, every situation is different. Artists experiment, they get drunk, their personalities don't always mesh, etc. More importantly, the singer has to trust the guitarist and to be honest with himself. This is where rubato can be useful as well as aesthetically pleasing because if you help him to deliver those syllables in a more coherent way within the three-beat units, he's going to be more comfortable with the "unforgiving" elements of your accompaniment.
My experience is that perfect compás is the most highly valued contribution to the best parties with the best singers. All of the gitanos I've heard who know how to sing have done so with strong and steady compás.
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Date Apr. 12 2011 11:54:06
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