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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to kudo)
This thread is more confusing than enlighting.
So what is cante libre? What is free form in flamenco? What's difference between the two? Can someone please explain it in relation to the following cases
- solo guitar - cante without guitar - cante with guitar - baile with guitar
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
This thread is more confusing than enlighting.
So what is cante libre? What is free form in flamenco? What's difference between the two? Can someone please explain it in relation to the following cases
- solo guitar - cante without guitar - cante with guitar - baile with guitar
Solo guitar- guitar forms based on song forms that don’t allow palmas (as opposed to forms that might allow for them even if not used). Cante without guitar- cantes that don’t allow for palmas nudillos, yunque, etc, no compas accompaniment (as opposed to forms that might allow it even though it is not used). Cante with guitar- most fandango derivatives where the guitar plays “answers” to phrases of singing, rather than constant chordal strumming. Baile with guitar- anything where you have the types of things above as music and the dancer is only doing movements with no rhythmic footwork.
For the record, what you asked has nothing to do with the topic of this thread which was about elastic compas vs what is considered a mistake or out of compas regarding Solea mainly.
The exchanges on page 3 regarding the Antonio Mairena performance between myself and Norman are the main jist of this subject. The deleted posts by romerito were in regards to playing of Antonio carrion that some might consider out of compas, but my thoughts on it were clearly stated and though this was 10 years ago, I don’t have anything to add.
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
But by "should" I mean square box. The vast majority of good solea singing it seems to me is NOT square box. So in a sense a "free" melody on top of solid compas of the guitar IS what happens a lot of times. That is how I see that they impose things like Fandango naturales over the solea compas as well. A free melody manipulated over the compas. Even I have heard some singers do cantiñas this way.
quote:
Well first let me explain what is "square box". Each line of verse of a typical solea, lets say alcala, is around 8 syllables. Lets make those syllables rhythm (they are anyway) and simplify the rhythm of the melody to quarter notes. There is usually a breath, so any solea can start on count 1, pause on 4 or 6, then end on 9, giving the chord chord change for count 10-12. Each musical phrase can work that way, each compas, each of the 3 or 4 line letras taking one compas of time. Now if the singer starts on the & of 1, does 8ths not quarters (&2&) and pauses after 3 syllables, we get count 3 open for the chord accent (as you described as a "clue"). This is one way a singer can manipulate and sing rhythmic, yet as you can see ahead it is still, or will be still "in the box" so to speak, with the next 5 syllables adding up to the chord change (10).
Is it what you mean above? As a listener I really enjoy this kind of rubato singing.
At 2:36.
At 4:08-6:00
In the first video above at 1:22, do you think this is the reason why flamenco singers sing rubato if done intentionally?
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand)
I once had the priviledge to hear El Chocolate, near the end of his life, in a small hall with the guitar of Antonio Carrión. Antonio sang por soleá. In every compás he exceeded el compás. Carrión followed him and did a remate on what you would consider beats 13 and 14.
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Morante)
quote:
So, which can´t sing or which can´t accompany?
El Chocolate was old and probably lost his rhythmic sense. So it was definitely not his fault. Generally if the singer does it intentionally, then guitarist should cope with it somehow. If the singer can't sing in rhythm and has a poor sense of musical timing, one better not accompany him/her. He/she must be sent to the vocal coach first.
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Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand)
Comedy gold. I also saw him sing. I didn't get a chance to tell him how old and out of compas he was....I was too wrapped up in his solea and Habichuela's playing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand
quote:
So, which can´t sing or which can´t accompany?
El Chocolate was old and probably lost his rhythmic sense. So it was definitely not his fault. Generally if the singer does it intentionally, then guitarist should cope with it somehow. If the singer can't sing in rhythm and has a poor sense of musical timing, one better not accompany him/her. He/she must be sent to the vocal coach first.
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Escribano)
Truth be told I can't remember if it was Pepe or Juan-they both were in the show I saw. It was a big production called "Flamenco Puro" that included many famous artists including Fernanda and Farruco-it played in New York for weeks and then came to SF. I went twice. This was in 1986 or so. I still have the program somewhere...
Here is a list of the cast I found on the net:
Dancers ... Manuela Carrasco Dancers (El Blencasao) ... Jose Cortes Dancers (El Farruco) ... Antonio Montoya Dancers (La Faraona) ... Pilar Montoya Dancers (La Farruquita) ... Rosario Montoya Dancers (El Guito) ... Eduardo Serrano Dancers ... Angelita Vargas Singers ... Juan Jose Amador Singers (El Boqueron) ... Diego Camacho Singers ... Adela Chaqueta Singers (El Extremeno) ... Enrique Singers ... Fernanda de Utrera Singers (El Moreno) ... Juan Fernandez Singers (El Chocolate) ... Antonio Nunez Guitarists ... Joaquin Amador Guitarists ... Ramon Amador Guitarists (El Bola) ... Agustin Carbonell Guitarists (El Habichuela) ... Jose Carmona Carmona Guitarists (El Habichuela) ... Juan Carmona Carmona Guitarists ... Jose Miguel Carmona Nino
El Bola was just a kid.
I'm pretty sure Pepe played his solea solo so maybe it was Juan who played for Chocolate. I bought Pepe's solo album A. Mandeli with his famous solea so long ago it's on vinyl. I just in the last month finally learned some falsetas from it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano
quote:
I was too wrapped up in his solea and Habichuela's playing.
Pepe? He's one of the absolute best and I saw Chocolate in London many years ago. I remember his solea, of course.
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
It was a big production called "Flamenco Puro" that included many famous artists including Fernanda and Farruco-it played in New York for weeks and then came to SF. I went twice. This was in 1986 or so. I still have the program somewhere...
NY Times says the show opened in New York on October 19, 1986, scheduled to run for five weeks. So maybe early 1987 in San Francisco?
In early 1987 I started living half the time in Austin and half the time in Palo Alto. Went to the show in San Francisco with my girlfriend, who was blown away. When Chocolate came out to sing pa'alante she asked, "My God, who is that?"
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Is it what you mean above?
Absolutely not. Solea has a structure. The examples you point to would all be ways to manipulate the timing and stay in the box. Flamenco singers used to sing out of the darn box. The best singers. Since the beginning. Only for dance choreography did it start to be prefered to stay in the box.
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