About rosettes

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About rosettes

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Janne H

Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Sweden

About rosettes

Hi,

Maybe this is a strange question, but then again I haven´t seen it been discussed anywhere.

I was wondering, why do most (all?) classical/flamenco luthiers use the same type of rosettes? About the same size with little variations, most of them reminding of old carbet decorations. When I look at steel guitars, luthiers seem more open to different kinds of rosettes. Like solid wood ones, or different inlay materials and shapes and forms. Why is that?

Janne

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 10:38:40

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

I think most luthiers have experimented with natural wood and other non traditional rosettes. But a lot of us go back to traditional mosaic because it just looks right on the guitar IMO. and very simple mosaics can be very beautiful. They're challenging but fun to make.
Here's my rosette.. I don't think I've seen a carpet like this

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 12:07:48

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

There are many Spanish guitar makers that use solid wood rosettes and MOP roses aswell. The traditional tiled rosettes look the part on spanish guitars.

Why do most steal string builders use boring old concentric circles as there rosettes? I think they would look a bit silly with the tiled rosettes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 12:18:06

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

In every aspect of a guitar's looks, I detest the vulgar. Too much ornamentation to me makes the guitar look like a woman with too much makeup.

One of my favorites is the simplicity of the Santos Hernandez style rosette. I love the system of interlocking circles.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 12:31:38

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

The carpet analogy is a better one than may be readily apparent. Each thread in a carpet is analogous to each tiny piece of wood in a mosaic pattern. In terms of the patterns themselves, both could be called Byzantine in their origins, or middle eastern... whatever. Since they are repeating patterns you are kind of stuck with that affect.

I make three "stock" rosettes

This first one is my Alhambra rosette as the pattern came from a bas relief carving I saw in the Alhambra and is about as traditional as you can get IMO

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 12:38:12

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

Heres the second one, based on an old Enrique Garcia rosette (Barcelona builder at the turn of the 20th century). To me this rosette looks very Spanish but less Moorish.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 12:39:58

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Harry)

quote:

Too much ornamentation to me makes the guitar look like a woman with too much makeup.

Torres' descendants claim that the shape of his guitar was based on the figure of a young woman in Seville so maybe the ornamentation is fitting.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 12:41:03

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

And then there's my tribute to my teacher Al Carruth, this rosette is my signature rosette and is made of side grain flame maple, ebony and pearwood. The pattern is pretty basic but the woods and technique make it somewhat flashy, which is the way I like it, let the wood do the talking,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 12:42:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Harry)

quote:

One of my favorites is the simplicity of the Santos Hernandez style rosette. I love the system of interlocking circles.

I know that guitar, I've played it and it is a fantastic guitar. I have a close up of that rosette that I took when it was in my shop. Lemme see if I can find it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 14:45:22

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: About rosettes (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

And then there's my tribute to my teacher Al Carruth, this rosette is my signature rosette and is made of side grain flame maple, ebony and pearwood.

This rosette is very beautiful, well done master.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 14:58:29

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

Here's that same Santos rosette-

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 15:22:04

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

there's that same tap plate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 15:24:32

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 24 2011 15:27:57

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 15:26:58

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

That is definitely the same rosette!

All of the ones on this page look great to me...

I suppose it is the one spot where builders can go nuts, but like I said, I prefer something understated and classy!

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 15:42:51

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

Here's a 1900 Manuel Ramirez "showing the hand of Santos Hernandez" that sold for $17,500 USD at Chrstie's in October, 2008. Apparently 'bling' hadn't gone completely out of style a century ago.

RNJ

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 16:19:19

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Here's a 1900 Manuel Ramirez "showing the hand of Santos Hernandez" that sold for $17,500 USD at Chrstie's in October, 2008. Apparently 'bling' hadn't gone completely out of style a century ago.

RNJ

Now that is ugly!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 16:26:53

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

OOOOOhhhhh Richard ....not for me , price or style ....unless perhaps I was wearing a shirt that was to match the rosette pattern...............

I did see I interesting one somewhere to match the arches of the mezquita de Cordoba.......if you commision a guitar the rosette could be personalized ...?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 16:35:14

stephen hill

Posts: 300
Joined: Feb. 16 2004
From: La Herradura, Granada, Spain

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

this is my standard, rather carpety??!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 16:43:34

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

carpety is good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 17:04:09

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

Here's a good old traditional rosette on a good old traditional guitar

Any guesses?

Aaron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 17:11:14

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

How about Anders'
resette?

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 17:35:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: About rosettes (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

Here's a good old traditional rosette on a good old traditional guitar

looks like a Barbero

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 18:46:11

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

You are correct.

It's the 51 to be exact.

I love his later rosettes best though, the red, black and white one that looks like something Harley Davidson would have come up with, if they built guitars that is.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 19:13:04

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: About rosettes (in reply to edguerin)

I love Anders' Rosettes because they look very very organic.

Very very woody!

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2011 19:38:23

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: About rosettes (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rico_Kiko
I did see I interesting one somewhere to match the arches of the mezquita de Cordoba.....

That's pretty much Jose Romanillos' trademark, continued by his son Liam, since Jose is essentially retired from making guitars. My '73 Romanillos (#407) has the same pattern inlaid on both the rosette and the bridge. It evolved a bit throughout Jose's carreer, but remained clearly recognizable. I've seen at least one ripoff of the 'Mezquita' rosette design on the web, but such seem to be fairly rare.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2011 2:20:55

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

Here you have one of my favorites. Olivewood and bloodwood on Cedar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2011 7:43:54

Janne H

Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Sweden

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Does anyone here have (or have seen) any steel guitar like rosettes on classical/flamenco guitars, like solid wood ones? Pics or links? Just to see how it fits...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2011 10:34:18

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen

And then there's my tribute to my teacher Al Carruth, this rosette is my signature rosette and is made of side grain flame maple, ebony and pearwood.

Wonderful!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Here you have one of my favorites. Olivewood and bloodwood on Cedar.

It looks beautiful!

Never heard of bloodwood.
That reddish / metallic sheen besides looks as if the wood was containing copper. Very interessting.

What I´d like to see ( and think to have seen somwhere ) would be the classical greek ornamentation.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2011 11:29:56

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

Another kind I´d love to see, notwithstanding conventions, would be traditional Nort-American native motives, like e.g. on my old belt.
( Used to have a special book on such with beuatiful examples, only that books don´t return when lent out.)

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2011 11:34:21

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: About rosettes (in reply to Janne H)

I've seen the Greek Key motif in a few rosettes, as well as an ornamental inlay in Torres' guitars.

Bloodwood is a great red, unlike other woods it also stays red, doesn't turn brown with time. The red in my Alhambra rosette is bloodwood veneers. It's a pain to work with, likes to split and splinter (in veneer form anyways) and if you get a splinter, it burns like hell. Not as bad as snakewood, but it will send you running for the tweezers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2011 12:52:22