RE: Old School Tone

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

RE: Old School Tone

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: << < 1 2 [3]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thats interesting.
My last two guitars have been 5 strut fans. I'm pleased with them, and like you I'm gradually making refinements.
Luthiery is like that: always seeking to make improvements, step by step.

And I agree with what you say about right hand feel. Much harder to get right than the left hand but so important for a really good guitar.

_____________________________

Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2011 7:33:47

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

What I´ve been working the last couple of years is more right hand feel than sound

That is exactly the same conclusion I came to a few years ago too. People ask how to get the sound, I would say never mind the sound, get the feel right and the sound will be there. Then they want to talk about tap tones and stuff and I would say just try getting the feel right. Some people just get hung up on trying to conjure the sound I think to an extent the sound comes as byproduct of the right feel. And you have to play them a bit to tell if the feel is good.

My new fan pattern is on a classical guitar....making a singer, not a strummer.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2011 7:45:39

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to krichards)

quote:

What I´ve been working the last couple of years is more right hand feel than sound. In the end, its the right hand feel that makes us, the players, sound

Yes I agree, this is interesting to hear you talk about this, I am not a luthier ,but I have never been happy with the sound thing ,,, and recently I went right back to basics to try to get things into perspective and the sound was the main one.
Which brings me to the right hand, and I have been experimenting with different sitting positions and the right arm further out , further in , flatter hand . more arched, as yet I havent really found a comfortable one,..
I just get fleeting moments of a flamenco sound....yes ... and then it's gone ...D'oh
But I do like the old school tone kind of sound, its a very dry and almost rattley sound....

quote:

Sabicas also tuned down a half step and used a cejilla

Yes I was just trying this out a short while ago, and it does have a big effect especially if you play something with a low D tuning , ( now almost a low C) big difference....
I also now prefer using Light strings (EJ43's) I think it helps.
But the sound is a mixture of the guitar and guitarist and I think so much more the guitarrist,,,,
I said before here that if Paco picked up my crappy guitar it would sound like him , and if I picked up his it would still , unfortunatly , sound like me .
This comes back to the idea of the player generating the sound not the instrument , (at the risk of being beaten up by marauding luthiers )

Of course in reallity its best to match the guitar to the player, I have met luthiers that do just this, I talked to Manuel Reyes about this a long time ago now..
Anyway , the point is getting the right hand right,,,this is difficult to get instruction and info on, and, of course, it's personal, what works for one may not be so good for another...
I would be interested in seeing more opinions here on getting the right hand right ....

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2011 9:27:43

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to krichards)

quote:

I would be interested in seeing more opinions here on getting the right hand right ....

Basically for ergonomic playing:

#
Omitt levering up. ( Rest lower arm near ellbow [ = not midst lower arm]/ letting the hand `fall into the strings´on default.)

#
Omitt angles.

#
Omitt simultaneity of protagonists and antagonists. ( Pay highest attention to consequitive execution.)

#
Suspend extensors, letting gravity do the job instead as much as possible.

#
Delegate execution as far up towards bigger muscles as possible.

#
Stop the very minute of encreasing strain without encreasing speed. Rest until tension has been released, before continuing ( in a better way ).

#
Think of wings instead of claws.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2011 11:21:50

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

Of course in reallity its best to match the guitar to the player, I have met luthiers that do just this, I talked to Manuel Reyes about this a long time ago now..

Manuel is right but there are risks involved trying to cater to different players who like different styles. Sometimes the guitar quality is not as constant.

A guitar maker has to feel his way through every style this way, and it is a bit risky. I think this may be one reason that Reyes had inconsistent, although good guitars, throughout his career.

The best way for a maker to handle this is to build toward his own standard and place everything necessary for the player with-in the player's grasp; Tone, articulation for the right and left hand, and the top timber which lends control, to some extent by the way it pumps air.

This comes from understanding the fan brace system in union with top thicknesses. In other words, a flamenco player should have a guitar with an action that snaps rather than bounces with its string tension. This has everything to do with how the guitar operates with rasgueado and picado. With a tension that snaps, a player can dig in with rasgueado and his picado speeds up with a better tension that doesn't bounce against his right hand.

And this is controlled by several techniques concerning the over-all design and micro managed adjustments. So it's best if a builder strives for this style, as it will be sufficient for the majority of players in this idiom.

The most important point to any guitar is that it be high quality in tone, articulation, and timber control; not to forget projection with proper volume.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2011 13:02:51

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to krichards)

thanks Tom B for your reply , as I mentioned I am not a luthier so pretty soon I will have to leave the "how to build " side of the conversation, I just mentioned about Manuel as I was in once with someone ordering a guitar and he asked him to play different guitars so I was curious about what he was looking for and so he kindly went through some things about styles and postures etc...
I agree with what you say about guitar makers feeling their way through styles , I would suppose that one would only become good at this type of seconed guessing with years of experience ( and probably a certain ammount of failiures to learn from ?)

Ruphus , thanks for posting your points, I have been thinking about them and if they can help me , I would think that as it is difficult to explain certain things that the conclusion of this would start to take video form, which is now getting on to "having a guitar teacher" that helps one through these things.
Maybe therer could be a video thread on how to get the best from Tremolo , picado , rasguerdo etc..in terms of posture and sound.....

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2011 14:08:56