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Old School Tone   You are logged in as Guest
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Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

Old School Tone 

Did guitars that were built/used up to the mid to late 60's have a more nasal dry sound or is it just me?

It seems like in these older recordings the guitars sound completely different. Is it a question of construction, set up, or simply that modern recordings are EQ'd to have a fuller sound?

Does anyone prefer that old school sound? To me it is definitely harsher but the attack just sounds better, more of a raw sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 16:57:05
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

you mean like this rasgueado by Juan "Morote" Maya?

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 17:43:49
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to edguerin

That is pretty close. Very dry sound.

Definitely the sound makes me think of a Blanca with pegs? Would a guitar with pegs sound different? Here is a more modern example perhaps.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 18:42:26
 
cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

I think it has a lot to do with the player and the recording instruments that they used back then
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 18:45:26
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

It's just a thing with some old recordings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 19:07:40
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

hmm Perhaps the jump in volume in the rasgueaos makes the sound distort more in these recordings, adding to the growl?

Still, I have read descriptions on the forum of a "nasal" tone?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 19:10:10
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3196
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

The last time I heard Sabicas live was at a concert in San Antonio, Texas in 1965. It was in the pseudo-Spanish auditorium of Thomas Jefferson High School--maybe 800-1000 seats, lots of plaster walls. We were on the front row. Sabicas played unamplified. You could hear the sound bouncing off the back wall!. There was lots of loud buzzing.

I had heard Sabicas live in smaller rooms several times. There was
little or no buzzing, full clear tone, but still with that cutting brilliance.

I think many of the old school guys, used to playing in noisy rooms with no amplification, had learned to produce a sound that cut through the fog. Much of Melchor de Marchena's recorded work has a rawness and brilliance, both in tone and aire, that we don't hear from many of the modern solo stars.

There is a wide variety of sound on Sabicas' LP recordings, ranging from the dry, cutting tone of 'Flamenco Puro', often with the cejilla as high as the fifth fret, to the fuller more reverberant sound, with the cejilla lower or absent, on some of the later LPs.

Mario Escudero made some recordings with a Hauser guitar, no cejilla. His tone was more 'classical' than Sabicas', though his aire was fully flamenco.

Recording technology on Spanish flamenco LPs at least up to the 1970s, was audibly inferior to that in use in the rest of western Europe and the USA. That would also contribute to quite a different sound.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 21:12:30
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

I think many of the old school guys, used to playing in noisy rooms with no amplification, had learned to produce a sound that cut through the fog. Much of Melchor de Marchena's recorded work has a rawness and brilliance, both in tone and aire, that we don't hear from many of the modern solo stars.

Good point RNJ. That's what Cepero point out also.
Nowodays the guitarrista made soft rasgueos coz they don't want dammage their nails.
Plus they have the bad habit to add a lot of reverb in the amplification and the consequence is that they sound like maricas

And what about hungry guts?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 21:35:44
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

Thanks for those insights Richard!

I suppose it is likely that playing harder combined with the recording technology could account for that crackling sound.

It is difficult to discuss sound with words, but it feels crunchier and yet a warm sound.

Perhaps it is simply that most guitarists these days don't go for blancas that have an all out nasal tone and growl. After all, they want some sweetness for the Rondenas etc...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 22:08:16
Guest

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

quote:

I suppose it is likely that playing harder combined with the recording technology could account for that crackling sound.

true
but comparing my 87 ramirez with my friends 65 ramirez [both pegheads and blanca] the 65 definitely has a more crackling 'midrange' growl and tone to it.
more sweetness in my guitar more 'crack and growl' in his...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 22:44:49
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

Meh, you can play an old guitar and get all kinds of sounds. I think players now play really hard. Chuscales kicks ass. Carlos Heredia for example can do anything in a room that Sabicas or Melchor did with projection. Many guitarists now have big sounds.

Sabicas also tuned down a half step and used a cejilla in the appropriate fret, much of the time. This makes the stings lower in tension and he had low action already so he was Mr. Fret Noise. Try it, you'll sound noisy and Sabicasy
Moslty I think it has to do with the players touch, it's called the toque for a reason right> :)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2011 23:08:07
 
RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to edguerin

Edguerin:
I really liked that, the sound is just right for me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 1:16:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
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RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

I think that's called a rasguiorgasm

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 2:13:41
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Guest

Perhaps a good mix of crackle/growl and sweetness isn't so hard to find. A nice peghead blanca perhaps?

Just need one of these



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 2:20:38
Guest

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

both ramirez sound flamenco...both growl and sizzle but the 87 definitely has 'sweeter' spots along with the traditional growl....the 87 being louder and more 'fuller' in the low midrange...more pronounced trebles..less nasal but still with that quality present...
had the opportunity to purchase either guitar and the 'fuller' sound of the 87 suited my playing more...
in terms of construction though both guitars are 1a's the construction did morph over 20 odd years
double sides on the 87
different peg length, width and routing
variations in bracing and top thickness
action different at bridge to soundboard etc...
all these elements will affect tone..which will be highlighted by the advances in recording technology..
this is a contributing factor
but same 'model' guitars did vary over the course of time in construction...
so to a degree this will influence 'tone'...also string technology???
also guess alot of those guitars were 'new' then.

the eliasson sounds great.....

got my eye on these however...going back to a luthier for a guitar. hopefully by years end.





having been lucky enough to be in the same room as 61 fleta and a recent model by luthier jim redgate the sounds/setup/feel of these two guitars [classicals] are worlds apart...one definitely 'old school' ie balanced mid range projection and the other very modern ie balanced midrange with more pronounced bass and trebles, volume and projection...both very different construction and materials...
just supporting the argument that construction is/was a contributing factor to the shift in recorded guitar 'sound'.
..all beautiful guitars...can easily listen to sabicas then put on jeronimo maya without being concerned with preferences...old school and modern both live in the present....
love your guitar

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 7:34:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

There are Soooo many things that define sound.
1) the sound of the instrument. You can build more balanced or more growly
2) The player. Old school players wanted to sound like that, that was esthetics back then. Paco wanted to sound like he did (kind of does) And more modern players want to sound like they do now. Thay alway play "perfect" 16 notes rasgueado and not like the old schoolers, playing quintuplets. Its esthetical. Black Sabbath wanted to sound the way they did.
3) recording. Old recordings were made in an afternoon and the player didn´t even change strings. Now recordings are made with 1 hour old strings, retakes, days, weeks.
4) Soundengeneers want something they can work with. They prefer pretty sterile guitars over growly ones. Because then they can make the sound. They dont like "click" sound from the nails. etc. In all they are producing a more boring sound.

Continue yourself.

I myself prefer a pretty throaty or growly sound, a bit of dirt always inspires me, I love clicking nails, I´m not specially fond of brand new strings. When they start changing color my guitars sound the best. The video where I play Bulerias is NOT with new strings. I´m working a new bracing system, which is less controlled, more vibrant and lets see what happens.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 8:49:05
Guest

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

pretty throaty or growly sound, a bit of dirt always inspires me, I love clicking nails,


thats the sound

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 8:57:11
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

quote:

I myself prefer a pretty throaty or growly sound, a bit of dirt always inspires me


Indeed Anders (and AlVal), I have noticed that your guitars (at least the ones I have heard online) possess a very flamenco sound. The guitar Emilio Maya plays in that famous clip (the same one you play here no?) has that old school sound to me. Can't have flamenco without a rajo voice and this is especially true of the guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 10:42:23
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry

quote:

I myself prefer a pretty throaty or growly sound, a bit of dirt always inspires me


Indeed Anders (and AlVal), I have noticed that your guitars (at least the ones I have heard online) possess a very flamenco sound. The guitar Emilio Maya plays in that famous clip (the same one you play here no?) has that old school sound to me. Can't have flamenco without a rajo voice and this is especially true of the guitar.


Harry,

I think that any guitar can be made to sound flamenco depending on its set-up and ambient working conditions toward a Spanish style bracing system.

But let's face it, Barbero comes to mind, as does Santos, in this style of sound.



The Gerundino that Paco Pena plays above, is certainly a good presentation. I have a 69 Gerundino guitar pattern, of a guitar that Paco Del Gastor used to own, and this is a very nice rendering of flamenco in it's older style but with a sweet edge; unlike his more recent models with a bigger, deeper sound, which, to me, seems to take away a little of the older mystic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 13:14:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

^


*palmforehead*
*palmforehead*
*palmforehead*
*palmforehead*
*palmforehead*
*palmforehead*


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 15:52:43
 
Escribano

Posts: 6305
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

quote:

The guitar Emilio Maya plays in that famous clip (the same one you play here no?) has that old school sound to me.


Yeah, that's mine, and the subject of the "El Guitarrero" documentary. It is the sound of the peg head blanca, that I have always loved.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 17:04:56
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to estebanana

Perhaps you could be more specific

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 19:33:40
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

quote:

I think that any guitar can be made to sound flamenco


Perhaps, but not every guitar I hear, has that sound as you point out, it is specific to a time and a brand, and a style.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 19:35:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

quote:

Perhaps you could be more specific


Specificity tends to get me in trouble.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 19:41:28
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

You´re already in trouble son..

What does this strange word mean:
*palmforehead*

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 21:13:44
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

What does this strange word mean:
*palmforehead*


When you write *palmforehead* between asterisks it is the written sign that you are slapping your palm to your forehead in disbelief, disgust or self flagellation.

Anders-did U grw up aftr textgn was invntd or wht?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 21:18:12
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to estebanana

perhaps i can help by guessing

a) you are not into rajo voices
b) you believe every guitar is different so it is useless to make generalizations
c) you are not into the idea that cante of any kind=flamenco
d) you are not into or don't believe in an old school sound
e) you take exception with my grammar/word choice



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 22:14:17
 
Escribano

Posts: 6305
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

quote:

perhaps i can help by guessing

a) you are not into rajo voices
b) you believe every guitar is different so it is useless to make generalizations
c) you are not into the idea that cante of any kind=flamenco
d) you are not into or don't believe in an old school sound
e) you take exception with my grammar/word choice


It wasn't aimed at you, he replied to the wrong post - see the little "^"?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2011 22:26:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Harry

Mark Shields is an American journalist who reminds me of Manolo Franco. They look alike right? I would like to see Mark Shields sing Moon River or My Favorite Things while Manolo Franco plays for him.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2011 0:30:21
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Old School Tone (in reply to Escribano

Ah thanks for this bit of info. It will be most useful! (oops)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2011 2:08:03
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