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Did guitars that were built/used up to the mid to late 60's have a more nasal dry sound or is it just me?
It seems like in these older recordings the guitars sound completely different. Is it a question of construction, set up, or simply that modern recordings are EQ'd to have a fuller sound?
Does anyone prefer that old school sound? To me it is definitely harsher but the attack just sounds better, more of a raw sound.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
The last time I heard Sabicas live was at a concert in San Antonio, Texas in 1965. It was in the pseudo-Spanish auditorium of Thomas Jefferson High School--maybe 800-1000 seats, lots of plaster walls. We were on the front row. Sabicas played unamplified. You could hear the sound bouncing off the back wall!. There was lots of loud buzzing.
I had heard Sabicas live in smaller rooms several times. There was little or no buzzing, full clear tone, but still with that cutting brilliance.
I think many of the old school guys, used to playing in noisy rooms with no amplification, had learned to produce a sound that cut through the fog. Much of Melchor de Marchena's recorded work has a rawness and brilliance, both in tone and aire, that we don't hear from many of the modern solo stars.
There is a wide variety of sound on Sabicas' LP recordings, ranging from the dry, cutting tone of 'Flamenco Puro', often with the cejilla as high as the fifth fret, to the fuller more reverberant sound, with the cejilla lower or absent, on some of the later LPs.
Mario Escudero made some recordings with a Hauser guitar, no cejilla. His tone was more 'classical' than Sabicas', though his aire was fully flamenco.
Recording technology on Spanish flamenco LPs at least up to the 1970s, was audibly inferior to that in use in the rest of western Europe and the USA. That would also contribute to quite a different sound.
I think many of the old school guys, used to playing in noisy rooms with no amplification, had learned to produce a sound that cut through the fog. Much of Melchor de Marchena's recorded work has a rawness and brilliance, both in tone and aire, that we don't hear from many of the modern solo stars.
Good point RNJ. That's what Cepero point out also. Nowodays the guitarrista made soft rasgueos coz they don't want dammage their nails. Plus they have the bad habit to add a lot of reverb in the amplification and the consequence is that they sound like maricas
And what about hungry guts?
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
I suppose it is likely that playing harder combined with the recording technology could account for that crackling sound.
It is difficult to discuss sound with words, but it feels crunchier and yet a warm sound.
Perhaps it is simply that most guitarists these days don't go for blancas that have an all out nasal tone and growl. After all, they want some sweetness for the Rondenas etc...
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
I suppose it is likely that playing harder combined with the recording technology could account for that crackling sound.
true but comparing my 87 ramirez with my friends 65 ramirez [both pegheads and blanca] the 65 definitely has a more crackling 'midrange' growl and tone to it. more sweetness in my guitar more 'crack and growl' in his...
Meh, you can play an old guitar and get all kinds of sounds. I think players now play really hard. Chuscales kicks ass. Carlos Heredia for example can do anything in a room that Sabicas or Melchor did with projection. Many guitarists now have big sounds.
Sabicas also tuned down a half step and used a cejilla in the appropriate fret, much of the time. This makes the stings lower in tension and he had low action already so he was Mr. Fret Noise. Try it, you'll sound noisy and Sabicasy Moslty I think it has to do with the players touch, it's called the toque for a reason right> :)
both ramirez sound flamenco...both growl and sizzle but the 87 definitely has 'sweeter' spots along with the traditional growl....the 87 being louder and more 'fuller' in the low midrange...more pronounced trebles..less nasal but still with that quality present... had the opportunity to purchase either guitar and the 'fuller' sound of the 87 suited my playing more... in terms of construction though both guitars are 1a's the construction did morph over 20 odd years double sides on the 87 different peg length, width and routing variations in bracing and top thickness action different at bridge to soundboard etc... all these elements will affect tone..which will be highlighted by the advances in recording technology.. this is a contributing factor but same 'model' guitars did vary over the course of time in construction... so to a degree this will influence 'tone'...also string technology??? also guess alot of those guitars were 'new' then.
the eliasson sounds great.....
got my eye on these however...going back to a luthier for a guitar. hopefully by years end.
having been lucky enough to be in the same room as 61 fleta and a recent model by luthier jim redgate the sounds/setup/feel of these two guitars [classicals] are worlds apart...one definitely 'old school' ie balanced mid range projection and the other very modern ie balanced midrange with more pronounced bass and trebles, volume and projection...both very different construction and materials... just supporting the argument that construction is/was a contributing factor to the shift in recorded guitar 'sound'. ..all beautiful guitars...can easily listen to sabicas then put on jeronimo maya without being concerned with preferences...old school and modern both live in the present.... love your guitar
There are Soooo many things that define sound. 1) the sound of the instrument. You can build more balanced or more growly 2) The player. Old school players wanted to sound like that, that was esthetics back then. Paco wanted to sound like he did (kind of does) And more modern players want to sound like they do now. Thay alway play "perfect" 16 notes rasgueado and not like the old schoolers, playing quintuplets. Its esthetical. Black Sabbath wanted to sound the way they did. 3) recording. Old recordings were made in an afternoon and the player didn´t even change strings. Now recordings are made with 1 hour old strings, retakes, days, weeks. 4) Soundengeneers want something they can work with. They prefer pretty sterile guitars over growly ones. Because then they can make the sound. They dont like "click" sound from the nails. etc. In all they are producing a more boring sound.
Continue yourself.
I myself prefer a pretty throaty or growly sound, a bit of dirt always inspires me, I love clicking nails, I´m not specially fond of brand new strings. When they start changing color my guitars sound the best. The video where I play Bulerias is NOT with new strings. I´m working a new bracing system, which is less controlled, more vibrant and lets see what happens.
I myself prefer a pretty throaty or growly sound, a bit of dirt always inspires me
Indeed Anders (and AlVal), I have noticed that your guitars (at least the ones I have heard online) possess a very flamenco sound. The guitar Emilio Maya plays in that famous clip (the same one you play here no?) has that old school sound to me. Can't have flamenco without a rajo voice and this is especially true of the guitar.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
I myself prefer a pretty throaty or growly sound, a bit of dirt always inspires me
Indeed Anders (and AlVal), I have noticed that your guitars (at least the ones I have heard online) possess a very flamenco sound. The guitar Emilio Maya plays in that famous clip (the same one you play here no?) has that old school sound to me. Can't have flamenco without a rajo voice and this is especially true of the guitar.
Harry,
I think that any guitar can be made to sound flamenco depending on its set-up and ambient working conditions toward a Spanish style bracing system.
But let's face it, Barbero comes to mind, as does Santos, in this style of sound.
The Gerundino that Paco Pena plays above, is certainly a good presentation. I have a 69 Gerundino guitar pattern, of a guitar that Paco Del Gastor used to own, and this is a very nice rendering of flamenco in it's older style but with a sweet edge; unlike his more recent models with a bigger, deeper sound, which, to me, seems to take away a little of the older mystic.
When you write *palmforehead* between asterisks it is the written sign that you are slapping your palm to your forehead in disbelief, disgust or self flagellation.
Anders-did U grw up aftr textgn was invntd or wht?
a) you are not into rajo voices b) you believe every guitar is different so it is useless to make generalizations c) you are not into the idea that cante of any kind=flamenco d) you are not into or don't believe in an old school sound e) you take exception with my grammar/word choice
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
a) you are not into rajo voices b) you believe every guitar is different so it is useless to make generalizations c) you are not into the idea that cante of any kind=flamenco d) you are not into or don't believe in an old school sound e) you take exception with my grammar/word choice
It wasn't aimed at you, he replied to the wrong post - see the little "^"?
Mark Shields is an American journalist who reminds me of Manolo Franco. They look alike right? I would like to see Mark Shields sing Moon River or My Favorite Things while Manolo Franco plays for him.
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