RE: nuclear crisis in Japan

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Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

You cannot shut down a Nuclear reaction in 5 minutes.

It takes days and that energy has to be dissipated, whether in useful energy of not, otherwise you will get a heat overload and eventual explosion.

thanks for clearing that out Ron ..
since this crisis started and I was always wondering why don't they just shut down/turn off all the reactors and end this tragedy without having problems .

also another thing always pops up in my head .. why don't they use ice to cool down rods and reactors ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2011 19:34:36

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

A compressed air cannister can be used to power a car with an engine that uses compressed air to travl over 100 km. A pump station can recharge a car with compressed air for $2.00.

This is true, but very inefficient. I was very intrigued when I heard about these cars, but there are too many factors that will hold them back.

I worked many years as a natural gas conversion technician and then as a compressor fabricator and maintenance tech. One main problem when dealing with a gas (non liquid) is storage space. You can compress the air/gas to about 3500 psi and store it in cylinders specially designed for this purpose. They are bulky, heavy, expensive and take up room. There are light carbon fiber cylinders, but they are quite expensive. At any rate, there is only so much air you can stuff in these cylinders and they wont get you too far - at least not without major infrastructure, ie. an air gas station at every block. As soon as you're out of the city you would be screwed

Just like with anything else, it will take a considerable amount of energy to produce the energy. You have to compress the air, and for that you need a massive compressor (assuming you have a lot of vehicles out there wanting to get filled) which requires either an electric motor or gas engine. Solar and wind power in most major cities would never be able to provide enough power to run all of these compressors. And, you would need a lot of compressors. It would be very inefficient to run underground piping for compressed air. every angle would result in a pressure loss and you would need boosting compressors all over the place.

I don't think that oil companies are putting the brakes on anything. Finding alternate energy sources is a huge problem. Wave energy is great, but it would require billions and billions of dollars, per city, if they have a coastline, just to build up the infrastructure to harness the energy.

We should start by taking all of our garbage and turning into methane...kill two birds with one stone!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2011 19:44:22

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

If you de-couple the generator from the steam source, then the source just gets hotter and hotter since there is nothing to take the energy away.

Leaving the generators with no-load has the same effect.

You cannot shut down a Nuclear reaction in 5 minutes or at the turn of a key.

It takes days and that energy has to be dissipated, whether in useful energy of not, otherwise you will get a heat overload and eventual explosion.

This is what Pimientito was on about.

cheers,

Ron

But see the following, from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_following_power_plant

"Boiling water reactors

Boiling water reactors (BWR) and Advanced Boiling Water Reactors can use a combination of control rods and the speed of recirculation water flow to quickly reduce their power level down to under 60% of rated power, making them useful for overnight load-following. In markets such as Chicago, Illinois where half of the local utility's fleet is BWRs, it is common to load-follow (although less economic to do so).

Pressurized water reactors

Pressurized water reactors (PWR) use a chemical shim in the moderator/coolant (see nuclear reactor technology) to control power level, and so normally do not load follow. (In most PWRs, control rods are either fully withdrawn or fully inserted - variable control is difficult, partly due to the large bundle sizes.)

In France, however, nuclear power plants use load following. French PWRs use "grey" control rods, in order to replace chemical shim, without introducing a large perturbation of the power distribution. These plants have the capability to make power changes between 30% and 100% of rated power, with a slope of 5% of rated power per minute. Their licensing permits them to respond very quickly to the grid requirements." end quote

I wonder what the specific technology is at Fukushima? I was wondering why they didn't just shove in the control rods when things started to go bad. Did the sudden power outage disrupt control? Did the earthquake take the emergency batteries off line?

At any rate, people (including me) are going to be very skeptical of nuclear plant safety for quite a while.

Here's the San Onofre plant in Southern California, sitting on the coast and near a major fault.

RNJ

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2011 20:12:01

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Technical details of the Fukushima plant and the accidents:

http://www.power-technology.com/projects/fukushima-daiichi/

Christian Science Monitor article on risks of US spent fuel storage:

http://tinyurl.com/4rxbcx6

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2011 1:12:38

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I was wondering why they didn't just shove in the control rods when things started to go bad.

Richard,

They did.
All the reactors were effectively switched off with all control rods in.
However there is a residual reaction which generates moderately low levels of heat for some days and that needs to be water cooled otherwise it will eventually get hot enough to melt the fuel rods and finally the containment vessel.

quote:

and the speed of recirculation water flow to quickly reduce their power level down to under 60% of rated power

ie no water recirculation, no heat loss (and that is only to reach 60%, not "off")

The Japanese had no water cooling working, except for fire engines and helicopter water dumps.

Also they had a problem with a spent fuel rod storage pond which needed recirculating water cooling.
The pumps were knackered in this also, since they had no electrical power.

Which on the face of it seems odd, since it was an electricity generating station.

I don't know that much about it. Only what I've seen on the News broadcasts.

But that was how it was explained on the BBC anyway.

peace, not arguing out of anything other than an interest in Engineering like yourself.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2011 8:54:31

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Elie)

How ironic is it that the tsunami, which disabled the nuclear plant, was caused by nuclear reactions inside the earth (convection)?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2011 9:39:48

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Ron.M)

Thanks, Ron. All info is welcome.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2011 19:45:39

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Which on the face of it seems odd, since it was an electricity generating station.

The back-up diesel generators were flooded - they were not positioned to survive a tsunami (the reactors were built to withstand earthquakes alright, but not flooding).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2011 20:07:03

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Doit has been there since he was 18.

I call that Early Onset Curmudgeonhood

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2011 20:10:55

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Elie)

I was just watching this video which shows some high quality pics of the reactors and extent of the damage.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2011 11:54:56

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to KMMI77)

That is so much worse than I feared.....

Chernobyl left a huge area unhabitable but Japan is a relatively small country and Fukushima is right in the middle of it.
Reactor 3 looks like the core has melted. I have no idea how they are going to sort out that mess but I fear that the long term environmental and economic consequences are going to be catastrophic.

Truly horrific and the worst possible nuclear scenario imaginable.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2011 16:20:34

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Pimientito)

After this : "Tokyo has announced plans to dump nearly 12000 tonnes of radioactive water from the Fukushima plant into the ocean", i wonder if the Japanese will continue to eat as much sushis or fish they use to? Or change diet?

Something "funny" i noticed when the media talk about this apocalyptic tragedy is that they understate the bad news (like this flush in the ocean) but they exaggerated the good (like ok! now it's clogged).
It's like ignoring the cause of a disease and just focus on the treatment...sorta glorify drugs and pharmaceuticals and not report pesticides and gmo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2011 9:36:55

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to mezzo)

I agree Mezzo,

The media coverage is very weak considering.

I just read that they have stopped the flow of the highly radioactive water going into the ocean but now they are trying to prevent reactor 1 from exploding.

How long can they continue to create highly radioactive water by pouring seawater into these reactors and spent fuel pools until they run out of water storage space again?It doesn't sound like this russian barge will be able to keep up with filtering the water in such huge quantities.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2011 11:10:40

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to KMMI77)

Yeah also what about the clouds?
I mean when the accident happened then all the world media talk about the wind, the weather, when the clouds will enter in our contry etc...

But what about NOW?!!
They don't inform about it anymore! Why? Coz the smoke radioactive emissions stopped?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2011 11:19:35

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

They don't inform about it anymore!

I believe even the experts are lost. Everyone appears to be waiting to see what happens.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2011 11:39:58

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Elie)

The more remarkable how the companies in question are being allowed to decide measures on their own.

Just as with the BP and the oil desaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
Eventhough the catastrophy can in the end effect billions of people the causing companies are given leeway to act as they like.

Which they naturally will do then with respect of company image ( playing down damages and threats, delaying proper action from the beginning ), budget ( holding back with expenses / shoving to future states investments ) and merely temporary "solutions".

And people will stand by watching the mess unloaded on environment and community.

It should be self-evident that the state must strictly take over supervision the very minute such catastrophies occure, and order the company in question regardless of the companies preferred budgeting strategy.

How could such be unclear to the people to start with.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2011 13:37:28

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

The media coverage is very weak considering.

I just read that they have halted the leak of radioactive water into the sea now and instead are using Nitrogen to prevent more hydrogen explosions.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/world/japan-stops-highly-radioactive-leak-into-pacific-1377215.html

However, I am far from convinced about the truthfulness of the press right now, not so much as what they are reporting, but what they are not reporting. From the beginning, the Japanese government has lied to its people and the world about the extent of the damage.
If reactor 3 has melted and the others are damaged, that is going to be sending vast quantities of radioactivity in to the environment. Dont forget this is a plutonium reactor the size of a 6 story block of flats. Already there have been stories taken off the internet such as this one
Gamma radiation on west coast (of USA) triple those on east coast.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AGNT4EomPq4J:eastcountymagazine.org/node/5706+GAMMA+RADIATION+LEVELS+ON+WEST+COAST+TRIPLE+THOSE+ON+EAST+COAST&cd=1&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=de&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.de

When news items start dissappearing from the internet I cant help but get EXTREMELY concerned. This sort of item has been replaced with reports that tiny amounts of radiaton have been measured in California but no exact figures are officially released.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/03/18/nuclear.concerns/

I cant help but think that this is going to be a problem with some very far reaching effects.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2011 14:29:58

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

It should be self-evident that the state must strictly take over supervision the very minute such catastrophies occure, and order the company in question regardless of the companies preferred budgeting strategy.

The prob is most of the time the interest of these big company and the politicians interest are closely related if not mixed.

Now Tepco is ill. Poor president

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/business-12904034

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/06/us-japan-tepco-idUSTRE7350NI20110406

Let 's see what the Jap gov decide to do. Cure him, let him die, assist him...All possibility with public money of coarse

Let's see also if the japanese electors change their mind about nuclear energy after this. Maybe they not!
Citzens will vote for denuclearization? If this option is propose by a political party...
Or maybe is inconceivable. Japan need a lot of energy to feed the world in electronic product. So status quo?
Alot of geeks are anxious for the next PS4. Pliz no delayy pliiizzzz

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2011 15:34:09

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

Germany's coalition government has announced a reversal of policy that will see all the country's nuclear power plants phased out by 2022.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13592208

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2011 18:05:28

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: nuclear crisis in Japan (in reply to mezzo)

It doesnt seem to be in the news any more with everything else going on in the world, but the nuclear core of the reactors has now formed a liquid pool of radioactive fuel twenty times the size of chernobyl. They have to keep it cool for a year generating thousands of tonnes of radioactive sea water. West coast of USA is already showing worrying health implicatioons related to increased radioactivity.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/06/201161664828302638.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2011 14:26:32