RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling)

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GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to M.S.A.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M.S.A.
some of these prices here are pretty reasonable:

The price for the same Gotoh model is close. 35.80 Euros is US$50. I assume those prices don't include shipping.

I got mine for $57 shipped.

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
For the money compared to the $150.00 tuners the $70.00 Gotohs without the lyre are my favorite flamenco guitar tuners.

You must mean these. They are very nice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2011 20:30:49

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana)

thanx for info, it's useful to know this.

Another thing, would you say there is a real difference in how it feels, I mean those for 150$ and over 250$? Are they significantly more comfortable, or easy to tune due to your experience?

Another question if we already talk about them - do they really affect the sound? My personal belief is YES a bit, but never had a pegheaded guitar so I just guess by what I hear. But I may be wrong. Some also say taht it does.

Some of the tuners that I've just seen have metal parts where you tie the string and that would indicate to me, that it must have even more agressive effect on final sound. I don't like metallic influence in flamenco, or classical guitar sound. What about the roller from plastic or plastic looking material that is usual. Wouldn't bone, tusq or similar materials be a benefiting upgrade??

thanx

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2011 20:31:12

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

Good for you, but that's stil a good price man.

I don't know yet which ones I will order, depends what will Stephen say. If he admits that it's reasonably different, maybe I'll invest into one pair of freaking good ones... Well I have a new guitar that absolutely deserves it (:

But it won't be lyre kind. I can't stand that shape since ALL factory guitars have these... although a bit different, cheapie versions..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2011 20:42:06

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

These ones are nice, $69 from stewmac they're Gotoh tuners

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2011 22:35:33

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to M.S.A.)

quote:

Another question if we already talk about them - do they really affect the sound? My personal belief is YES a bit, but never had a pegheaded guitar so I just guess by what I hear. But I may be wrong. Some also say taht it does.

I'm not even going to touch that one. I have an opinion, but not for public use:)

Speaking from my own experience I think that tuners really begin to be of higher quality after 250.00. Before that price point they really seem to be comparable which is why I say get the 60.00 dollar Gotohs. What you get for 350.00 or more is good looks and honestly more performance, but what you really get is resale appointment value. If you have a guitar with custom Rodgers tuners you can get more for it in resale value.

Look I have setup my personal cello with a 35.00 carbon fiber tail piece with integral tuners. It's lighter than the fancy 80.00 ebony tail piece or the 300.00 pernambuco tail piece. But it sounds better because it lets the cello vibrate more because the lightness does not giver as much damping to the vibration.

Perhaps that is comparing bananas to cucumbers, but there's some common sense there somewhere.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2011 22:51:13

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

These ones are nice, $69 from stewmac they're Gotoh tuners

These are the ones which always like to use. Ojalla that I get time to build myself a guitar I will use these and be very happy. That is unless I make it peg head, which for myself is more likely.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2011 22:53:48

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Look I have setup my personal cello with a 35.00 carbon fiber tail piece with integral tuners. It's lighter than the fancy 80.00 ebony tail piece or the 300.00 pernambuco tail piece. But it sounds better because it lets the cello vibrate more because the lightness does not giver as much damping to the vibration.

That supports my own opinion about the thing. It really takes only a common sense.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2011 23:37:23

Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to ralexander)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralexander

What's up with your incessant need to defend this company? In case you missed my comment, I'VE heard one in person several times - it was very mediocre. I was trying not to be so brutal in my previous comment, but we can go there. My teacher is a great player so he can get some OK sounds out of it, but he sounded x10 better on my $1000 Sigurdson before I sold it. For what it's worth, he wants another guitar but as a working musician money is tight. He's ordered something through our local music store so he can finance it.

The AG marketing is BS and the origins are suspect, which turns off a lot of people (for good reason IMO) - especially when there are so many honest, hardworking solo luthiers trying to make a living. It's great that you've met Ruben and you think he's nice and all that, but he has been polluting the online flamenco community for years and has made a lot of enemies with his ****ty attitude. What we're left with is the comments you'll find here and on several other forums.

I suggest you get a bit more experience before coming on here with this attitude. You should also make a point to go play some of these guitars and report back with your experiences. Maybe you'll buy one and that's fine, but other people are perfectly welcome to not even entertain the idea whether based on experience or principle.

So now the vitriol is directed at me. Solely because I'm trying to understand the negativity and I question how people who have neither seen nor heard this guitar can be so against it.

If you reread my posts, you'll see that I'm neither defending nor criticizing this brand.

I don't give a crap about their marketing - why would that bother anyone? Do you get your knickers in a twist because of the way children's toys are marketed in the months leading up to Xmas, or do you lose sleep about how McDonald's commercials are contrived so children nag their parents into going there? How about the crap they serve kids at school - does that bother you too? Cripes - the list is endless. I bet you can barely sleep at night from worrying about it all.

I wish I could do a review of this guitar - at least then there'd be something here that has a smidgen of objectivity to it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 2:01:27

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

quote:

I don't give a crap about their marketing - why would that bother anyone?

IMHO, probably because it's directed at folks like us ... flamenco guitar players ... and because the marketer may be pushing the instrument for far more than what it's worth. Nobody likes a sleazy and dishonest salesman.

Issues become relevant when they are either local or have the potential to directly affect you or your friends.

It's interesting to compare the AG marketing to the word-of-mouth awareness that grew around the guitars of Francisco Navarro Garcia and Salvador Castillo. The Navarros and Castillos started out relatively unknown and somewhat underpriced. Now these are well-known and highly recommended, are viewed as excellent buys, have seen increases in their prices, and people are tripping over each other to buy them. It's obvious that we can't say the same about the Andalusian guitars regardless of whether these were anointed by Paco or not.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 2:34:41

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

Yojimbo, I think I know what's the problem here. You have most likely never tried any other guitar than AG. Is that correct? I, So far had at least 15 if not more, not sure exactly. And all had entirely different tone, projection capacity, vibration, pulsation and how they reacted when played and played in various ways. Some of them were completely deff, dull and without life. Some other were exceptional.

If I was a customer I would certainly want to know more about their origin, who builds them, where, in factory, or on the knee. But I don't understand this hype to be honest, for someone to prefer buying AG over a genuine guitar from honest luthier's hands. Especially if prices of AG are not exactly low. Even the pricing is shrouded with mystery.. If the guy who's gonna take my hard-earned money is not accessible to provide serious information, so it's unavoidable that it will raise these issues and sarkasm.

Believe me, there are more options than you might think.

Just a parable. Imagine having 2 options on an Island. Eating valrus shiat or sand. I prefer sand over shiat. Some people, however, do prefer shiat. I don't know what's wrong with them. Not knowing chocolate or some other delicate goodies, I would be firmly convinced that sand is the way to go. Until ocean will not bring some sealed-in box full of chocolate. Then I realize I lived in total ignorance about what is really good and tasty. My taste was developed for loving sand as the ultimate food. But after trying chocolate, I would not be pleased to get back to sand... - And this is the same problem with some AG lovers. If I never had anything better than the total junk, I would rate your AG with number 10 probably. I urge you, go out somewhere where you can try some real guitar, or compare in real time with your AG.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 3:27:37

Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

I'm starting to think this is the most popular thread you guys have ever had on the forum. Well over 200 posts now, although some of those were objecting to the use of "build".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 3:28:51

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

quote:

Well over 200 posts now, although some of those were objecting to the use of "build".

We talked tuning machines too.

It seems to be a stream-of-consciousness thread with Andalusian Guitars being its undercurrent.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 3:38:00

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

It's interesting to compare the AG marketing to the word-of-mouth awareness that grew around the guitars of Francisco Navarro Garcia and Salvador Castillo. The Navarros and Castillos started out relatively unknown and somewhat underpriced. Now these are well-known and highly recommended, are viewed as excellent buys, have seen increases in their prices, and people are tripping over each other to buy them. It's obvious that we can't say the same about the Andalusian guitars regardless of whether these were anointed by Paco or not.

Oh, btw I'll be selling my Navarro guitar soon, I have no further use for it. I think I will make some good price.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 3:39:19

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

The marketing ot those toys and burgers might be viewed as skewed by you and others, but can you honestly say that those companies are being insulting and dishonest to their perspective clients?
I do not believe so, on the other hand AG marketers seem to go out of their way to misrepresent their product.
I have been active in the foro for several years and before AG there has been respectful disagreements on specific subjects but they were always constructive.
This Foro has many respected Luthiers, Teachers, Performers, Aficionados and Students and I know that everyone gets a fair chance to participate. Ruben got his chance., I am sorry he chose to be arrogant.

AG is responsible for creating the backlash they have received.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 3:41:56

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

quote:

How about the crap they serve kids at school - does that bother you too? Cripes - the list is endless. I bet you can barely sleep at night from
worrying about it all.

As a matter of fact one of the reasons I quit a job working at college that was training teachers is because they accepted gifts of free computer software from the Coca Cola Company in exchange for littering the campus with coke vending machines. I lead a charge to keep the coke machines and the sugary crap they sell in them off campus because I felt it sent a bad message to those who were learning to be teachers.

It sent the message that it's ok to let things slide so that a corporation can sell a product that causes childhood diabetes and obesity.

Not only do I lose sleep over this corporate sh*t weasle crap, but it makes me really motherfukcing angry. If that kind of sociopathic corporate behavior does not make you angry too, then you're a fool.

Try to form a more realistic and cogent argument.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 6:15:21

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

quote:

So now the vitriol is directed at me. Solely because I'm trying to understand the negativity and I question how people who have neither seen nor heard this guitar can be so against it.

If you reread my posts, you'll see that I'm neither defending nor criticizing this brand.

I don't give a crap about their marketing - why would that bother anyone? Do you get your knickers in a twist because of the way children's toys are marketed in the months leading up to Xmas, or do you lose sleep about how McDonald's commercials are contrived so children nag their parents into going there? How about the crap they serve kids at school - does that bother you too? Cripes - the list is endless. I bet you can barely sleep at night from worrying about it all.

I wish I could do a review of this guitar - at least then there'd be something here that has a smidgen of objectivity to it.

Were my comments re: my teacher's guitar not objective?

It doesn't seem like you're trying to understand anything. People are trying to explain to you why they dislike this brand, and you disregard comments from anyone who hasn't actually handled one. Some of your comments were also quite rude, especially considering you joined a month ago ("you're talking out your ass", "your post is utter nonsense to me"). Your reaction is similar to the way Ruben decided to defend the company when he met scrutiny so many times online. Go to the website and see the unauthorized, out of context "endorsement" from Paco. That is disgraceful. Then go look at the prices - $3k-$15k. Please. Either way, the fact that they are trying to blow out these guitars at $1000 just goes to show that the product does not speak for itself the same way that Castillo's or Navarro's guitars do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 14:49:21

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

Hey Yojimbo from Toronto,

You first came onto this Forum saying that you had come across this dusty old guitar you bought 30 years ago, saying...

"Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place, but I'm wondering if anyone can help me put a value on this guitar.

The sticker inside identifies it as Sobrinos de Domingo Estesos 1969. Here's a photo.

Thanks for your help."

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=160880&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#160880

Admit it man. That was all just a **** story to catch our interest.

You're just another Ruben drone/disciple/salesman, probably on commission.

You're trying to clear up all the bad press these guitars got here and all you are doing is digging the f'ing hole even deeper.

That's my opinion anyway.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 15:21:46

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron, thats not a **** story.
I looked in my attic too and found a Reyes sitting in its case.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 15:47:11

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

I'm thinking about buying some mangos today. Does anyone here also like mangoes? I feel terribly guilty as the mangoes are imported and precious fuel is wasted in bringing them to me. However I really desire a mango today.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 16:58:25

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Ron.M)

This crossed my mind as well Ron, as well as other members here I think.

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt always. As longs Manuel Torre isn't discovered hidden in a grandmother's broom closet.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 17:52:17

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

Am I also one of Ruben's drones on commission? - Seeing as I am the thread starter.

Next person to post in this thread is a syphilitic donkey whore. Enough is enough guys.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 21:33:37

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

Next person to post in this thread is a syphilitic donkey whore.

Do you have any mangoes today, sir?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 21:40:41

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

Next person to post in this thread is a syphilitic donkey whore.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2011 22:02:32

Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Hey Yojimbo from Toronto,

You first came onto this Forum saying that you had come across this dusty old guitar you bought 30 years ago, saying...

"Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place, but I'm wondering if anyone can help me put a value on this guitar.

The sticker inside identifies it as Sobrinos de Domingo Estesos 1969. Here's a photo.

Thanks for your help."

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=160880&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#160880

Admit it man. That was all just a **** story to catch our interest.

You're just another Ruben drone/disciple/salesman, probably on commission.

You're trying to clear up all the bad press these guitars got here and all you are doing is digging the f'ing hole even deeper.

That's my opinion anyway.

cheers,

Ron

Hi Ron

At the time I made that first post, I had neither met Ruben nor heard of these guitars.

If you knew me in real life you'd appreciate that the last thing I'd ever be is a drone / disciple for anyone. And I'm sure not a salesman although I did pump gas when I was in university all those years ago. The customers and I didn't get along all that well - one of them (a drugged out one who was foaming at the mouth) even punched me in the face one night.

I've now met Ruben in real life and I like him. He's very enthusiastic and helpful and he can really play. So when I read the snide comments here about the Andalusian guitar and about Ruben I sort of wonder what's going on. I don't know your history here with him but I imagine he's somewhat "prone to hyperbole". And if you read my contribution to this thread, you'll see that I'm neither defending nor criticizing the guitar.

At the very least, I'm helping you guys keep the record length thread growing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2011 1:22:13

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
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From: The land down under

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

quote:

wish I could do a review of this guitar - at least then there'd be something here that has a smidgen of objectivity to it.

This seems possible. Why not go and see Ruben and take your 1969 conde along. Make an objective video of him playing both guitars. I and I'm sure many others would enjoy listening to the two guitars side by side and forming our own objective opinions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2011 3:39:07

Harry

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Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

From what I have seen in videos, which doesn't count for much of course, R's guitars are loud and boomey, but don't sound flamenco to me at all. They have no warmth to them, but again that is just on video. To each his own. I would say that most members on this forum know where they stand when it comes to these guitars, and as I have said before, it is not surprising that people living in Canada and trying to find a decent flamenco guitar will gravitate towards these because frankly there just isn't much up here. I for one only heard about Jeff Sigurdson when I started doing research on this forum. Ruben may have cornered the Canadian amateur flamenco guitarist market, which is not a huge demo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2011 4:02:32

estebanana

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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

Does Geddy Lee play an Andelusian?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2011 5:10:39

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2011 5:41:16

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)

Hey Yojimbo,

OK. In order for me to believe this Santos Hernandez story, can you please post a picture of yourself holding it....say, with your left hand on the fretboard and your right hand resting on the top of the guitar.
Now even I couldn't believe you could photoshop that, so I'll take back what I said about it being a fairy story.

Deal?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2011 7:45:34

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

Hmmm this thread is getting dangerous..............

i mean I like Santos Hernandez guitars ....but I like Andalucian guitars too, .....
but which is best ?

Theres only one way to find out ...........FIGHT !!!!