RE: My own bracing pattern

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estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

The Kasha design would work better if it just had a lateral brace below the sound hole. The problem is it does not cut the sound board into enough sections to isolate the part of the drum head that makes the thumpy - thumpy go *boom*. ( to be scientific) They tried to intellectualize their way around that drumhead concept and it does not work too well.

There's too much top left unsupervised and the nylon strings don't generate enough energy to push that much top into prime flamencoville. most of those designs that have a that much free top sound flabby and gassy. The nylon strung Hawaiian slack key designs and the Simplicio double mouthed guitar from 1930's and this type of Kasha all have a similar sound envelope. It stems from not stopping the soundboard at the waist, which in most guitar makers opinion is a major flaw. I have not heard every Kasha guitar out there, but the ones I have heard fit that profile. To me it's an intellectually beautiful idea that does not translate into guitar common sense.

Double tops are far and away better as newer designs go.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 4:29:00

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

smarty pants

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 4:56:30

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

:*)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 7:13:07

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

quote:

If it was there I wouldn't have drooled in it while playing... I legit think I am the only person who has ever done that.

yeah, man. you got to practice your aim while playing. the key is to get it on the bass strings so your alzapuas can be slicker.

but seriously, about that guitar. i think it sounds pretty good.

I imagine that builders could make a guitar to sound like just about anything. If a harpsichord is what you want, then build it that way.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 11:38:05

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I imagine that builders could make a guitar to sound like just about anything. If a harpsichord is what you want, then build it that way.

i dont have a good reference for what a good classical guitar should sound like. there was nothing in that video that sounded displeasing to me. but again, i dont have an ear for it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 16:44:16

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

The top design is bad enough but the backs on those things are really absurd.
Think of how many man-hours went into building that little Smurf village inside the guitar. If I had made that I'd damn well open up a window in the bottom of the guitar too so people could see it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 20:08:13

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Think of how many man-hours went into building that little Smurf village inside the guitar. If I had made that I'd damn well open up a window in the bottom of the guitar too so people could see it

LOL!
i think those guitars take 36 months. i dont know much about guitar building but i hope that those crazy braces have some positive effect.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 20:41:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

quote:

I imagine that builders could make a guitar to sound like just about anything. If a harpsichord is what you want, then build it that way.

i dont have a good reference for what a good classical guitar should sound like. there was nothing in that video that sounded displeasing to me. but again, i dont have an ear for it.

There are all kinds of classical guitar sounds and no two seem to be exactly alike. Here is one of my Guitars played by Chaconne Klaverenga.........

http://www.youtube.com/Klaverenga#p/u/21/cGlcOi0DVtM

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 20:42:10

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

sounds great, tom!

i think this sounds good too. it goes great with that sexy/strange hyper ventilating thing she does.

im not sure but i think jose tanaka is playing this. this is the guy that makes the smurf village guitar. this sounds awesome to me.
http://www.boazguitars.com/Gallery.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 20:51:10

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to estebanana)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 22:08:51

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

wow, do you know if he has any special way of bracing the flamencos? does he use the crazy smurf village concept?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 22:26:06

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

Actually at that point you wouldn't really need any bracing

Adding bracing to a 4-5 mm top would just kill the thing it seems to me. I don't know, I've never heard of that approach (except in smaller historic instruments)

I've used 3.5 mm high bracing on a 2.1 mm top which makes 5.6 total and that's just where the braces are.
This Boaz guy seems very interesting from his site.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 22:43:23

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Guest)

quote:

He said he does this so the guitars can withstand the stress of being played in a tablao environment, and being played super-hard for hours every single day,

The two instruments I would like to have in a bar fight are:

A. The Fender P Bass
B. This one with the 5mm top.

After the fight you can play the P bass without even re tuning

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 2:58:44

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

This Boaz guy seems very interesting from his site.

yeah, i was on there for awhile. his jazz guitars look radical too. i wonder what he does with his classicals. im really curious about what goes on inside the guitar. i know jose tanaka plays one, i think i'll ask him.

quote:

After the fight you can play the P bass without even re tuning

i dont have a fender p bass... i have a squier p bass... i guess i should avoid bar fights.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 7:15:48

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

In this video at 1:20 you can even hear bells ringing. I wonder if the time of the recording was arranged deliberately...

It must be very hard for her. I dont think anybody is able to concentrate on the music. Its not possible. (Let alone on the guitar she is playing)

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 8:13:29

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

im really curious about what goes on inside the guitar.

I thought you knew already...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 17:06:54

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 21:54:47

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

quote:

After the fight you can play the P bass without even re tuning

i dont have a fender p bass... i have a squier p bass... i guess i should avoid bar fights.

You would do fine with the Squire- A friend of my dad's who has become a great friend of mine as an adult used to play bass in a country western band. We lived in San Bernardino CA and the place my friend Al used to play was this roadhouse called The Silver Spur. The Spur was located on the outskirts of town and our area back then in the 70's was still pocketed with small towns which were quite rural. There really were ranch workers and guys in motorcycle gangs going to The Spur, it often got rough and there were bar fights and the occasional gun getting drawn. Of course I was a boy then so I never went to the Silver Spur, but my friend Al likes to tell the story of the time he stopped a fight with a Fender P bass.

One night some cowboy got drunk and started something with a broken beer bottle and came after the band up on the band stand. It got the place into an uproar and Al unstrapped his bass and smacked the drunk cowboy upside the head with the body of the bass and the guy fell off the band stand and was thrown out the door by some other customers. Al then strapped the bass back on looked at the slide guitar player and the drummer, glanced over at the owner of the bar who gave them the thumbs up sign and began to finish the set without a break.
He said he did not even have to retune the bass.

Unless there is a fight in the tablao, five mm seems kinda thick to me. Nobody hits guitar that hard unless they are a drunk cowboy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 23:22:04

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Nobody hits guitar that hard unless they are a drunk cowboy.

ok, so what is jason mcguire?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 23:34:40

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

ok if a p bass is for bar fights.
what is this thing for?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2011 23:36:13

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

That is for Gene Simmons.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 0:16:33

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

Just in case the band gets paid in potatoes after an Idaho gig, they can make french fries.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 0:30:17

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

quote:

Nobody hits guitar that hard unless they are a drunk cowboy.

ok, so what is jason mcguire?

Jason is not a drunk and he's a city boy. He only breaks a guitar if he really tries, he's powerful, but he knows how far to go. Even for him 5mm is to thick.

Hauser (and others who build like that) made his tops 3mm thick and that is considered heavy.

Besides excellent players usually don't break guitars and if you are building them to withstand hard hitting you don't fundamentally understand the basic arte of flamenco anyway. Flamenco is not about killing guitars, over playing them or being brutal. If you don't get that you do not get flamenco or the ideas behind building a flamenco guitar.

Breaking a flamenco guitar is like a basketball player intentionally shattering a glass backboard to show off. Some players are stronger than others and they do naturally come down harder, but those players are not common and they have to decide for themselves whether or not they are going to go through a bunch of guitars by intentionally playing too hard all the time.

Look at all the great contemporary Spanish players, they play with conviction, depth and sometimes hard, but really what you see and hear is finesse and putting the gas pedal down all the way in a few well chosen places. Look at how powerful Chicuelo is, but he does not brutalize the guitar. Think back about how powerful Pedro Bacan was and if anyone could have broken guitars it was him, he played skillfully with power and finesse. All those guys know where the sweet spot is on the guitar and once you find that you don't have to play with brutal force to get the guitar to put out 100%

And think of how unmusical it would be to play balls out all the time? It would be monotonous. Musicians don't do that, they moderate their force and bring it in at the right time. So not to sound too pedantic, but when I hear people over building a flamenco guitar to compensate for pounding and banging I question how much they understand flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 1:01:11

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ok if a p bass is for bar fights.
what is this thing for?

You mean who is it for? - Gimli, of course:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 15:44:58

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Look at all the great contemporary Spanish players, they play with conviction, depth and sometimes hard, but really what you see and hear is finesse and putting the gas pedal down all the way in a few well chosen places. Look at how powerful Chicuelo is, but he does not brutalize the guitar. Think back about how powerful Pedro Bacan was and if anyone could have broken guitars it was him, he played skillfully with power and finesse. All those guys know where the sweet spot is on the guitar and once you find that you don't have to play with brutal force to get the guitar to put out 100%

And think of how unmusical it would be to play balls out all the time? It would be monotonous. Musicians don't do that, they moderate their force and bring it in at the right time. So not to sound too pedantic, but when I hear people over building a flamenco guitar to compensate for pounding and banging I question how much they understand flamenco.

Well said.

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 15:47:19

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

You mean who is it for? - Gimli, of course:

And what ax for Legolas ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 15:54:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

Actually at that point you wouldn't really need any bracing
Adding bracing to a 4-5 mm top would just kill the thing it seems to me. I don't know, I've never heard of that approach (except in smaller historic instruments)

We used to sand cedar tops to 7mm then taper them around the edges to 4mm. We used very light fan bracing and after the guitar was assembled we continued shaping the top until the voice seemed right. This method resulted in extremely loud and percussive guitars. The finished top had a convex shape which made it appear to be made with a solera but the arch was all carved (sanded) in. We stopped using this method for two reasons. The action tended toward the stiff side and it was too difficult to maintain uniformity in the voice. Those guitars are holding up very well and are still amazingly loud although I prefer our new ones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 16:25:46

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to XXX)

Filomena Moretti........... she is so sweet and nice!, I like this girl.

About bells .... maybe she is playng at 12 am! (time for bells ringing in Italy! :-) )

ciao
Giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 16:49:58

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Jason is not a drunk and he's a city boy.

haha, i wasn't implying that he's a drunk or a cowboy. i was just having some fun because he's from texas and he plays hard. he has incredible dynamics that totally makes my head want to explode sometimes. damn... what a guy.

quote:

That is for Gene Simmons.
Just in case the band gets paid in potatoes after an Idaho gig, they can make french fries.
You mean who is it for? - Gimli, of course:

quote:

And think of how unmusical it would be to play balls out all the time? It would be monotonous. Musicians don't do that, they moderate their force and bring it in at the right time. So not to sound too pedantic, but when I hear people over building a flamenco guitar to compensate for pounding and banging I question how much they understand flamenco.

yup, well said. thats facebook status worthy, dude.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2011 23:09:59

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

We used to sand cedar tops to 7mm then taper them around the edges to 4mm. We used very light fan bracing and after the guitar was assembled we continued shaping the top until the voice seemed right. This method resulted in extremely loud and percussive guitars.

maybe those guitars would be good for rumba players. it would definitely be a step up from those acoustic-electric cutway guitars so many of them seem to love.