My own bracing pattern

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

My own bracing pattern

Got a whim to try something crazy..
I made this design based on some ideas of Gerundino and Conde (hoping to cash in on those names of course

), various others and my own ideas.
I'll probably work on this guitar over the next few months as a side project because it's totally experimental.
Any reactions?

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 21:55:39

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

top is about 2 mm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 21:57:00

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Look's nice. I hope to understand more about top construction one day...
Your thread reminded me of an Ecuadorian builder who also has come up with a unique brace pattern.
Take a look at this video at 1:25.

He made a guitar for Paco using this pattern and I think it sounds pretty good.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 22:39:45

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Andy:
I admire your innovative spirit.
I do not know anything about guitar construction, but I have listened to your guitars and I belive your talents are superb.

Keep us posted on your progress.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 1:05:16

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

don't know much about bracings.. just am interested in what will the result is.

cheers =)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 5:19:16

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Its pretty heavily braced across the grain on the lower bout with the closing struts very high in the guitar.
I wouldnt work like that. But as I´ve said before, its not the plan but the builder which counts. So maybe you have made something good that works for you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 7:47:38

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I assume the Gerundino part is the cut off bars being moved higher?

It really looks more like a Friedrich system that got mugged at the bus stop and then went to a bar to recover, whereupon someone slipped a quaalude into its drink.

You have too many changes going on at once to really think about anything or make observations. I'm all for the cutoff bars being moved higher, but whenever effect you'll learn about by doing that is being confused by the open harmonic bar and the silly diagonal things you have poking out of the sound hole. If it were me and I was experimenting I would do one change at a time. The open harmonic bar and the diagonal thingies seem very non intrinsic to getting a flamenco sound, if that is the intent.

You can experiment by jumping off a cliff, but most of the time brace experiments are more effective if you move in small increments rather than radical departures between tries. Don't ask me how I know that.
But you'll probably just think I being a bloody w----r anyway.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 15:35:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

most of the time brace experiments are more effective if you move in small increments rather than radical departures between tries.

Yes, and sometimes half a milimeter is enough.
I think its fine to jump from cliffs sometimes. If your intuition says this is the way to go, then go for, but maybe you´ll end up with a box with a neck that you´re not happy with. I´m pretty sure it´ll sound. Have volume, be vibrant, have strong trebles etc If you get the thing balanced out. But my intuition is that its more classical than flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 18:33:25

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I can't tell you if it will work or not because I can't hear it. Describe to us your intentions behind your working. It could be the next awsome pattern!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 18:53:33

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Stephen, try to relax amigo. Like I said it's totally experimental and certainly won't go towards an order if it actually ever gets built at all. Once again I don't understand your bitterness. I guess you're just trying to add to your irreverent image

I do agree though that the only and best way to really learn and improve is to modify a bracing pattern very incrementally over time, shaving off .1 mm here and there or whatever. Which is what I've been doing and will continue to do with my regular bracing system.
I'm not expecting this to rock the guitarmaking world but sometimes you get some crazy ideas in your head that just won't seem to leave until you let them have their say.

The Gerundino part is actually the diagonal thingies (namely shorter 1st and 7th braces that are much more angled than the middle 5). I just chose to run them up through the harmonic bar because I wanted to open it up and needed some support under there. The high cutoffs is something seen on some 70s Condes.

My hypothesis about the open harmonic bars, which could be 100% BS, is that they can lend a certain human, singing quality. I think of those areas kind of like the sinuses and other resonating areas in the human body that can provide harmonics to a sung note.
Also, more importantly actually, I just don't see the NEED for that much extra cross-grain stiffness up there.

Basically I like the design I've been building, but it makes a very ballsy, testosterone driven, punchy kind of thing that can be a bit one-dimensional.

With this design, if I do build it, I'd be going for a more complex and dark sound but still trying to retain good dryness and percussive qualities.

There is probably at least a 50% chance that I won't like the result but there may be something there that I'm willing to work with.. who knows. Maybe it would be better suited to a classical.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 19:56:24

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Interesting. It also reminds me of a Bouchet design. You won't know for yourself unless you try it so let me know how it turns out. Is there anything in particular that your trying to achieve?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 21:07:21

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

quote:

Your thread reminded me of an Ecuadorian builder who also has come up with a unique brace pattern.
Take a look at this video at 1:25.

He refers to this idea as his invention. I guess he's never heard of Kasha. Kasha built a very similar radial bracing design some time back. Unless.........Kasha ripped him off! Just about everything under the sun has been done. I thought I had pretty much seen it all until I saw that post where someone uploaded a guy banging around on a guitar made of marble!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2011 21:10:29

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

He refers to this idea as his invention. I guess he's never heard of Kasha. Kasha built a very similar radial bracing design some time back. Unless.........Kasha ripped him off!

There was a French guitar maker in the 19th century who made a round faced guitar with radial braces. Beat them both.

Kasha was an acoustic scientist, it was Richard Schneider the guitar maker who realized his ideas. They call that design the Kasha-Schneider. Randy Reynolds knows how to build them and even made, I think, his first flamenco guitar with that bracing system. He makes a classical that way, in addtion to his other guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2011 2:14:32

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

That's not so impressive Santos Hernandez used a lattice bracing design in 1927 on his double boca model before switching over in 1930 to a very thin soundboard and 9 parallel braces. I know this for a fact because I saw the interior photos on a very reputable guitar brand that starts with A

that still builds his guitars for him today

LMAO

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2011 3:58:46

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

He refers to this idea as his invention. I guess he's never heard of Kasha. Kasha built a very similar radial bracing design some time back. Unless.........Kasha ripped him off!

There was a lot more to Kasha's design than the radial bracing. He put lead in the head and end block and had an unusual split bridge. I attended a lecture/demo he gave many years ago where he talked a lot about "soundhole flap" and brace dimensions, etc. Then had someone play one of his guitars which in my opinion was unimpressive.

Schneider who built the Kasha guitar was also a real innovator. He was a fine craftsman who had an annoying habit of constantly referring to the "modern" guitar. Modern guitars were of course only made by Schneider. He did things like cut frets from round stock and glue them into concavities on the fingerboard . Imagine doing a fret job on that guitar! Last time I saw him he was showing a guitar with rosewood sides, redwood back and cedar top which had a large trap door mounted where the end block would normally be. By looking through the trap door you could see the extensive and very unique interior bracing. The trap door incidently was for easy installation of an interior microphone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2011 14:28:00

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Got a whim to try something crazy..
I made this design based on some ideas of Gerundino and Conde (hoping to cash in on those names of course ), various others and my own ideas.
I'll probably work on this guitar over the next few months as a side project because it's totally experimental.
Any reactions?

It will work, believe it!

I would thin the top to 2mm and a slight bit thinner to 1.9mm under the bridge area in the middle of the top. The top will be stiff so it's a good thing to remove more wood from the center area of the top.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2011 16:08:31

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I can be a douchebag and make up sh*t too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2011 5:27:55

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I can be a douchebag and make up sh*t too.

we know..

just kidding

Looks interesting.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2011 22:25:58

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

it's not a flamenco

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 1:23:51

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

what do you guys think of this?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:03:21

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

Brilliant, you will make millions on this. Quick delete the picture so no ones calls the patent office before you

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:09:50

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

It looks like a Trilobite fossil glued to a board.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:12:01

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

or this

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:21:38

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

or this

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:23:27

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

I am trying to figure out what I am looking at... Is that a guitar with a window on the back?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:23:33

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

i guess so. so you can look deep into the soul of a prehistoric centipede fish alien or whatever the hell that thing is more easily.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:24:31

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to at_leo_87)

Thats where I should have made the soundport on my classical. If it was there I wouldn't have drooled in it while playing... I legit think I am the only person who has ever done that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:29:46

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Lol Kasha guitar, living proof scientists flunked out of luthier school.
I was thinking of making a guitar with liquorice bracing, that way whenever you open the guitar case wham strawberries

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2011 3:37:25

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My own bracing pattern (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

If it was there I wouldn't have drooled in it while playing... I legit think I am the only person who has ever done that.

yeah, man. you got to practice your aim while playing. the key is to get it on the bass strings so your alzapuas can be slicker.

but seriously, about that guitar. i think it sounds pretty good.