RE: The challenge issued by my school teacher

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cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Last one, finished veneer

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2011 19:23:44

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

So I'm confused... was the front of the headstock curved from side to side or along the grain?

To echo what others have said, it really pays to take your time and make sure everything is right before you proceed.. even if it means you're not able to get done what you wanted to on a given day.

And definitely lock up your stuff. And beat that punk's ass.

And to add to what others have said, walnut is a nice wood for veneering the back of the headstock IMO

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2011 20:22:57

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Yes walnut is nice to, I'm just not a huge fan of putting ebony on both sides, a less bold contrast in the colours for the back is a classier look but that's just my taste.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2011 23:27:27

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

You have to take mishaps like these in stride, take it as an opportunity to be a little bit creative and artistic.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2011 23:32:55

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Deteresa, it looked as if he took the headstock and shoved it against the circle cylinder sander (I don't know what its called) and moved it around on all different angles. He also sanded down the ended where the nut goes a **** tonne. I spent 2-3 hours sanding and planning until I was satisfied. There are parts on the headstock that are not perfectly square which is why I had to heat the veneer up and warp it into the headstock shape. It looks fine now, it looks good as new.

Although I am a bit worried about the nut section because its rounded a tiny bit. I plan on chiseling that section out a little bit than plane the neck to fix it. Man this kid has caused me so much grief. I could just order a new neck blank but I enjoy a challenge. If the final product isn't up to my standards I will just order a new neck blank, and work on the body.

On Monday I will do the above and mark the center lines on the neck, transfer over my headstock template and cut it. I am excited for that part

Also I am going to add a motion sensor alarm so if anyone touches my wood they will be deafened but the 300 decibel alarm. Also their insides will turn to jelly.

And yes if I find the kid who did it, in the world of emoticons he will be colon left bracket

Sean, good words. I love problem solving, and making things interesting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2011 2:56:04

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Removing more wood with a chisel and then trying to re level the top of the neck blank with the headplate still on may not be a great idea because the plane will hit the headplate like a doorstop when it really needs to make full length passes if you chisel out any wood. Another optional repair is to take a thin slice off the heel block glue it to the nut area, that way you only have to level that very small area to the rest of the neck. If you match the grain orientation and only need a little added wood it won't be very noticeable, almost invisible if you do it well. The final option remove the headplate re level the whole blank properly again, that is if you have enough wood for that.
Remember any bit of wood removed by the nut area has to be compensated the entire length of the neck blank, a str8 edge doesn't lie.
When it comes time to gluing the fingerboard on you don't want to be regretting having cut any corners at this stage because it will be to late, Spanish guitars are not designed for disassembly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2011 4:57:15

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Sean)

I had to go into the school today to watch a friends basketball game, I brought a nut to see how it would line up with the neck and veneer and to check for gaps, it was perfect. It looks like I don't have to change anything

Can't wait to cut out the headstock!

Also I had this really cool idea - I am thinking out chiseling out a thin line around the headstock where the the veneer and headstock meet and fill it with some sort of coloured wood filler to add a cool but subtle effect.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2011 3:08:08

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I put the template on top of the Veneer with scotch tape. Preparing for the bandsaw cut. I also put one on the back, to be quite honest I don't know why I put one on top of the veneer because that will be facing down when I cut it on the bandsaw.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 20:00:49

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I wish I had someone take pictures of me while I was cutting it on the bandsaw, all well - I will do that in the future. Here is it freshly off the band saw and a little bit of sanding. I need to clean it because it's dirty as hell!

I will sand it and make everything symmetrical tomorrow. Also I am going to spend a period making a capo out of some maple and left over stripes of indian rosewood

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 20:03:28

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I touched it up a little before the end of the period. I still need to make the headstock design much more symmetrical. That will be tomorrows job along with a Capo (Details posted above)

I am definitely feeling a peg head for this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 20:05:26

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Side view.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 20:06:32

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

Also I had this really cool idea - I am thinking out chiseling out a thin line around the headstock where the the veneer and headstock meet and fill it with some sort of coloured wood filler to add a cool but subtle effect.

Actually not such a cool idea. Don't waste your time gilding the lily because you have serous things to think about when you get to working out your neck angle and other geometrical stuff.

Stay focused on the basics now, you're doing good. So what's next in the order of assembly? Think about critical path, what thing leads to what and why.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 21:08:36

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

Alright thanks, will do.

The next step (after the sanding of the headstock) would be drilling the holes for the pegs, then glueing on the heel block. Then mark the 12 th fret. Here is my question, should I cut the neck to the appropriate width before or after I put on the heel block?

Also I have been looking into how to make a peg head and can't find anything. What size of a drill bit should I use to drill the holes? And what steps should I take to ensure it works well? I guess even if I screw up on the peg head I can convert it to a machine head - hopefully it won't come to that though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 21:20:45

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Looking good cRobson12!!

If you will be using traditional pegs, you will neen a Viola reamer and pegshaver. They both need to have the same conical shape and taper. I order Viola Wooden Pegs.

- violin/viola Pegshaver
- Spiral violin/viola reamer.

I got mine from a store called Metropolitan Music Co. in Vermont. I paid $99 for both, and a Spare Shaver Blade.

If you are getting the modern geared pegs, I am sure they tell you what size drill bit you most use for them. There pegs I believe are easier to instal, and they might cost you about the same as buying the traditional pegs and tools. But if you are willing to build more guitars, I believe it is worth getting your tools and learning how to fit traditional pegs.

I will look for a thread where I asked about peg fitting and add as a link. Cool Stuff Mister!! Keep up the good work!!

Rodrigo Pacheco @ Delirio Hand-made Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 0:13:17

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to rodpacheco)

Thanks Rodpachecom, I do a lot research into these items and tools. Hopefully I will be able to find the tools I need somewhere down town (Toronto).

I was planning on making a machine head, but something about this indian rose wood veneer screams "Peg head" at me

. Oh yeah for sure, I definitely want to do it the traditional way - it will be a good learning experience.

I am looking forward to see this thread! And thanks man, I am having a lot of fun doing this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 0:23:05

rodpacheco

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Joined: Apr. 19 2010

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 0:41:52

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Alright, this is the thread where I asked for advice first on finishes, and then peg fitting. This below is the response Anders Eliasson provided. Cheers Anders!!

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=134932&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#134932

RE: advices on Finishes, por favor! (in reply to rodpacheco)

Rod.

Basically, depending on your pegshaver, make sure the blade is sharp !!!!!!!! and make sure the shaver and the reamer have the same conical angle!!!!!

shave the pegs until they are 6,5 - 7mm thick at the finest point.

drill the 6 holes in the headstock 90 degree angle. I personally prefer to position them in a traditional way, so that the 1st and 6th string are tuned the opposite way.

Ream the holes slowly with a light touch on a nice day when noone is disturbing you!

Final shave the pegs so that they fit

Make holes in the peg.

put strings on, tune the guitar, play it, sell it, get money, buy El guitarrero by Escribano.

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It is true, you have to go very slow and gentle with the reamer. Lay out the peghole position so that the strings clear from the post to the slots on the saddle. It might mean that you have to "push in" the A and B strings a little (1mm) so that they clear, many makers do this, specially if the shape of your headstock is "V" opened. Once again, trace the holes and imaginary strings to the slots on saddle if you will.

Then you drill the pegholes with a smaller bit (smaller than 1/4 of an inch, for that could be the width of the tip of the peg when you finish them) I believe 5.5mm would be good (so that the peg reamer can fit the drill hole at the tip, it measures a little more than 3/16'') so you use the drill hole as a guide for the reamer.

Here´s where you have to take your time and really make sure that you keep the reamer SQUARED in relation to the headstock (vertical and horizontal) because the conical shape of the reamer tends to move, like when using a corkscrew!! it tends to "curl" sideways, etc.
So take it very slow and check your progress every milimeter sort of!! so you can maintain the reamer as leveled and straight as possible. And the 6 Pegs are even!!

When you get the reamer and the shaver, they both must have the same angle, check that, and as Anders said, MAKE Sure it is SHARP and also go slow, fraction by fraction shaving the peg.

It is rewarding taking your time to perform this "complex" task, you will see that it takes its time and seems harder than it really is... you only have to be careful the first time around to understand how it works.

Alright, hope this is good!! Let's get Rockin'!!

Rodrigo Pacheco @ Delirio Hand-made Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 0:56:43

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Looking good, nice headstock design there.
Get the reamer and shaver and practice putting pegs in a piece of scrap.
If you get all the pegs shaved down to the same size you can put a mark on your reamer as rough guide for how far to ream. But of course refine each hole with the actual peg.
Drill your holes big enough to get the end of reamer in but smaller than the end of the peg.
And when you are reaming keep checking from all angles to make sure you're going in square.

Glue the heel on the same width as the neck is now. Then make your cut for where the sides slot in, the outside if which will theoretically be at the 12th fret. That cut separates the foot (inside the guitar) and the heel (outside the guitar). You can bandsaw both to the rough shape, then cut the "cheeks" of the foot off at an angle. Then shape the foot with rasps/files and sandpaper. The heel should be carved with a chisel or a knife. Leave the rest of the neck square until after the fingerboard is glued on.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 1:03:21

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thank you Rod, that was extremely helpful!

I don't have any questions right now, that answered pretty much all of them. I am sure plenty will arise when I get the tools though

Thank you Deteresa. It's not done though, I just cut out the rough shape on the bandsaw, it still needs sanding, shaping, and a bunch of little details.

I will glue the heelblock on Wednesday, I am probably going to be spending a lot of time detailing the headstock.

Would using a carving knife be easier than using a chisel? Or is it just a matter of preference? I am not sure if I follow when you say the "cheeks". Also I noticed the sides go into the heel block on an angle, what is the angle?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 1:19:58

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

The use of knife of chisel is a matter of preference. I Think Mr. Estabanana has mentioned that the use the different tools - knife, chisel, rasp, file, scraper blade and sandpaper is almost like using words to complete the work. So you will use knife or chisel and then rasps, and so on 'til the final sanding.

The "Cheeks" I think Señor Deteresa means the part of the block that you will carve out to make the final shape of the heel. Both sides of it above where the sides meet the heel. But this you might have to clarify with him because he mentioned foot and heel. Buuut, you can glue neck and heel block together, semi shape them on a bandsaw as Deteresa mentioned foot and heel, and after you cut the side slots, further shape the foot (inside the box) and heel (outside the box), remember you are only starting with your guitar. Neck, Top, Sides, Back, Bindings and then Fretboard. Then you will shape the neck AND heel too.

The angle of the cut to fit in the sides, is from your 12th fret mark, 32.5mm if using a 650mm scale. Only 2mm up. So from the 32.5mm, up to the 32.3mm at the center of the neck line. Imagine the the 2mm thickness of your sides will take up the space made by the upward cut. And the 12th fret when you finish the guitar will be spot on with the sides of the guitar and the neck. Fret and right below the sides (body).

On your block you will mark 32.5mm at the side of the block, and cut from right under that line (the body side of that mark) and cut up crossing that line to right above the 12th fret line to be within the 32.3mm and the 32.5mm.

Remember to cut appropriately on the front and back of the heel according to the sides, for example leaving 5mm on each side from the center line on the back of the heel (1cm total) and 1.5cm on each side of the front from the center line (3cm total).

Good day Mister!!

----------------------32.3mm
-------------------------------------12th fret line (32.5mm on a 650scale)
Body or sides

Start your cut right below the 12th fret line, up to right under the 32.3mm line.

By the way, Glue neck and heel together, and then make this cuts before you carve and shape the upper visible part of the heel or "Cheeks" as Deteresa told you. Muy Importante!!

Rodrigo Pacheco @ Delirio Hand-made Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 3:10:23

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

The tools just to do the pegs will cost you $100+ and then you have the cost of the pegs themselves. Ream all holes the same depth and then shave the pegs to fit the holes, do not ream the head to fit the pegs. Fat pegs work like crap and are hard to tune so I would say shoot for a 6.5mm diameter hole on the string side, it'll probably end up a little bigger at 7mm when your done.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 4:10:05

rodpacheco

Posts: 80
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: Mexico

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

P.s. the block I glue on the neck is a little over 2 inches wide on a 3 inches wide neck.
So I ;
-join neck and heel block square,
-then preshape on a bandsaw or handsaw,
-cut the side slots
-cut the neck approximate to its size, just leaving 2mm extra on both sides. (some makers leave the neck square but carve at the heel and nut/headstock)
-shape foot (what's to be inside the guitar) and pre-shape heel.

Once the fret board is glued on, then I final shape neck and heel. Of course once the guitar is binded!!

Hope it helps!

Rodrigo Pacheco @ Delirio Hand-made Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 4:20:39

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cRobson12
Also I have been looking into how to make a peg head and can't find anything. What size of a drill bit should I use to drill the holes? And what steps should I take to ensure it works well? I guess even if I screw up on the peg head I can convert it to a machine head - hopefully it won't come to that though.

Remember there are lots of ways to build guitars. Not just one.

At the risk of having other luthiers jump down my throat for suggesting a power tool. If you have access to a drill press use it for drilling the pilot holes for your pegs and get the type of ream that can be chucked so you can do the reaming with the drill press as well. Crooked pegs look very amateurish.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 14:37:51

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

At the risk of having other luthiers jump down my throat for suggesting a power tool. If you have access to a drill press use it for drilling the pilot holes for your pegs and get the type of ream that can be chucked so you can do the reaming with the drill press as well. Crooked pegs look very amateurish.

I strenuously disagree! I think he should make a drill with a stick with a sharpened sea shell mounted on the end with pig leg tendons and twist it to and fro it by means of a string braided from Andalusian goat hair. Eventually by friction and heat a hole will be bored through the wood in about ten hours. It is the only way to learn.

For ****s sake yes use a drill press.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:00:49

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I strenuously disagree! I think he should make a drill with a stick with a sharpened sea shell mounted on the end with pig leg tendons and twist it to and fro it by means of a string braided from Andalusian goat hair.

I feel that pig tendons have too high a tension and wear out quickly. I prefer tendrils of Madagascan tree moss soaked for at least 3 months in the sputum gathered from a Peruvian nose flute.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:18:03

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

3 months in the sputum gathered from a Peruvian nose flute.

And only from the region of Cuzsco, downtown Lima nose grease is just not the same.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:24:47

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

These are bench hooks. Slabs of expendable wood made into a work board. They have a stop at the end to use as, well, a stop.

I'm going to attach what I want to say because I don't want to gum up your thread with my own stuff. But heres a short picture essay on how to true up the side of your peg head and some info on peghead layout.

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:26:57

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

The bottom side of the bench hook. the stop goes against the bench and keeps the work board from sliding forward as you use it. If you find these useful you can copy them or make up your own versions.

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:31:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Here is a close up of the stop on the top of the bench hook. You see you can make different kinds of cuts with it. You can make up uses.

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:33:46

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Here's a basic fast way to true up the edge of your peghead with a hand plane.

Turn the peg head face down on the bench hook and rest it up against the stop. lay your very sharp plane in its side so the sole engages the side of the peghead at 90 degrees. Plane the peg head side by moving the plane towards the end of the bench hook while applying some side ways pressure to the plane. Practice on some srcap first and soon you'll get it.

You'll be able to fix the wonky edge on your peg head. Remember the technique because you will find uses for it later.

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:38:58