RE: The challenge issued by my school teacher

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n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Actually I was just commenting in general, I wasn't even responding to you
specifically. The wonders of electronic communication. Some times if you think
out loud somebody'll think you meant them. :)

Regards,
Jeff

quote:

You completely miss the point in every way possible. You should read what I wrote and respond to what is actually there instead of assuming a bunch of things about my points

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 19:12:44

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to n85ae)

Here the jig that I threw together today that is meant to create the 14 degree angle on the bandsaw with the first offcut. (all of this is just scrap wood) The jig has a thin piece of wood on the back for it to lock into the miter gauge area on the machine.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 19:52:52

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I know the pieces are not going to come out even on the bandsaw because the blade bends. But since it was just an off cut I used the crappy bandsaw because the good one was being used all period. Do these off cuts look fine or did the blade bend too much? I probably could have taken it through much slower, but it was the end of the period so I wanted to get a quick offcut done so that I could get feed back before tomorrow.

It is really clear that the blade bended a lot upon exiting - again I really pushed it through the bandsaw and it was the older machine from 1995 that has tonnes of issues - so this is worst case scenario. Thats what I think is the issue anyways. What do you think I should do? There is nothing wrong with the jig from what I can tell.

I will make another offcut tomorrow morning on the good bandsaw and upload it at about 9am. I am hoping to make the scarf joint on the actual neck blank at the end of the day tomorrow

Also what is the best method to square the pieces after I cut them? I saw a video of a guy sanding the scarf joint after he cut them but I forgot what that is for.

Thanks guys.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 19:57:24

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Do you guys think the problem was me going to fast or is it the machine itself?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 21:17:56

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to n85ae)

Right buddy, you said Neanderthal too.......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 21:21:48

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

Well, honestly I wasn't speaking to you specifically when I typed, however
since that's apparently not reasonable enough explanation.

Now I am speaking directly to it - Meet you out back behind the cave, and
bring your club knuckle dragger.

quote:

Right buddy, you said Neanderthal too.......

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 21:36:37

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

Do you guys think the problem was me going to fast or is it the machine itself?

Both. Try it on the better band saw or go through the time to adjust the first band saw. Also when you make jigs that index off of the miter slot on a table you have to make sure they are both tight and smooth.

One thing you can do is to plane (or sand if you must) the corners off the piece that fits in the slot that way the corners don't create friction- look at the steel miter gauge arm. So jig making often employs the use of hand tools to fine tune the jig, crazy notion I know. You can also hit the edges of the index piece with some wax and that will lubricate the miter slot. Also look at the slot very carefully and run your fingers through it make sure the slot itself on the table is actually clean and free of nicks that could make your pass through rough. It could be the slot not your jig that needs tuning up. Usually a fast light pass with a fine metal file fixes up any burrs on the side of the slot.

You can just hold the two pieces up to the disk sander and be done with it. Clamp them together and have at it. But first loosen the table and recalibrate it to square by using the steel mechanics square for setting up power tools. Or a good carpenters square. Make darn sure the table is 90 degrees to the disk, because you can't assume the last person who used it to zeroed it out.

Or you could use a plane at this point......but that could prompt more fighting by the adults and you would run the serious risk of learning something about woodworking.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 21:37:56

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks Estebanana, if you are on at about 9am (eastern canada) I will be uploading the new off cut; if you want to critique it that is.

Yeah I made sure it was a tight fit but smooth as well, that was pretty annoying as I went through several pieces of scrap wood until I was satisfied. Not so tight that it can't move, but not so lose that it wiggles

Although I assume some like it tight.

Oh shoot thats for mentioning that, I always forget to make sure the band saw table is at 90 degrees while in shop - thanks.

Haha, I think I can manage to squeeze I little time in with the planar (Planer?), I also planed the neck down to 20mm today and sqaured it up with the jointer. Although some hammer head sent a piece of wood through the planar with a nail in it so I had to hand plane the uneven parts.

Thanks man!

P.S I am off to my lesson, I will be back at 7:30- 8

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 21:50:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Pattern makers chisels are called pattern makers chisels because there is no such thing as pattern makers sandpaper. I'm pretty sure traditionally trained pattern makers, cabinet makers are trained first with planes and admonished to learn how to square up stock without sandpaper. I really don't see any logic to an argument otherwise.

I also don't shun power tool use, I have plenty of them. The point is that if you want to fabricate a guitar with jigs fine, but to train someone without taking them through a traditional route which backs up power tool use with a working knowledge of the hand tools that preceded them is fundumentally wrong.

And here's why, it develops a faulty platform of skills from which to grow. If a person wants to go on to do repair work a knowledge and skill of how to work with all the hand tools to a high degree is an absolute skill one must have. Every thing stems from the makers expertise in hand eye work and power tools are only a mechanized extension of that skill set.

Sandpaper joints technically has serious problems. At a microscopic level sanding is an act of removal of material by means of abrasion not and act of cutting. Two main problems are inherent in sanding whether it's by hand of machine: It macerates, (read chews) the surface of the work and closes the grain and pores of the wood. In this process the surface of the work become rounded, this can happen at a micro and macro level.

Planing and scraping are cutting processes which remove material by paring it. When wood is pared rather than macerated the grain structure is parted in a more reliable plane and the structure of the wood and grain is not mashed over, but is left open to more effectively take glues.

Planing & scraping produces both a flatter and truer surface, and a better gluing surface. Luthiers have known this since before the 16th century. In fact anyone from 150,000 years ago who split open a chunk of flint to make a blade to chop bones and skin would have known the difference between abrasion and parting.

There's an old canard...if I want to know what time it is don't tell me how to build a clock. The kid wants to build a couple of guitars not become a luthier. Maybe after he's done some building it will inspire him to go ahead and learn the trade.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 21:57:33

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

Check the tension on the band saw blade. Low tension = wobbly cuts.

And if the blade is dull because the idiot before you making a bong ran a piece of pipe through the band saw to make a part for his bong, ask the teacher to help you change the blade.

See, I used to run a power tool shop at an art college. I know all the tricks and how to order and set up silly things like metal lathes, plasma cutters and vacuum tables. One of my favorite things to do however, and it was my job because I had a touch for it, was to maintain the beautiful 3ft. wide throat band saw that came from the Naval ship yard in China Basin. It was used during WWII to saw these great arcs of laminated wood used to construct life boats. Fukcing fantastic machine.

Yes that's me Mr. Luddite! Luvs me some power tools.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 22:02:24

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

There's an old canard.

Hey dude you're the one who started it by assuming I am a stupid neaderthal.....

I've taught wood shop and run a wood shop, I've probably got many more people down the road using both power tools and hand tools than anyone here. There's no such thing as too much hand tool skill.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 22:13:04

jstelzer

Posts: 30
Joined: Dec. 14 2008

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to n85ae)

Smart move making test cuts on scrap wood. Keep testing until you get it right.

The slot on the band saw table is seldom parallel to the blade drift. The ripples on the saw cut indicate that the blade wants to move in a direction different than the direction the wood is being fed. Your instructor should be able to help in tuning the saw. If the blade drift cannot be adjusted to make it parallel to the table slot .. don't use the slot as a guide .. clamp a temporary fence to the table and adjust it to the blade drift. As previously noted, a dull blade or insufficient tension can cause the bottom of the blade to wander.
If you're not feeding the wood parallel to the blade drift .. it's a fight you can't win .. when you're feeding in the direction that the blade wants to cut .. it's a piece of cake .. you can FEEL the difference immediately ( provided the blade is sharp ).

How many luthiers does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one, but it will take him 6 months to build the jigs.

Jigs - Agonize once .. Build many in ecstacy.

Jim in La Pine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 23:06:45

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to n85ae)

quote:

Now I am speaking directly to it - Meet you out back behind the cave, and
bring your club knuckle dragger.

Have it your way, jack.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 23:10:37

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to jstelzer)

quote:

How many luthiers does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one, but it will take him 6 months to build the jigs.

* slaps hand to forehead, groans*

"The slot on the band saw table is seldom parallel to the blade drift."

Nice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2011 23:12:26

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

Heres the finished scarf joint on my guitar neck.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 17:43:30

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

More pictures

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 17:45:01

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

One more; Headstock angle is exactly 14 degrees

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 17:47:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

Heres the finished scarf joint on my guitar neck.

You sure you want to do it that way? Anything bother you about that joint?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 18:07:08

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

Yes I am sure. I have to hand plane the rough side of the headstock piece that attatchs to the neck because the blade bent a little tiny bit at the end. Then I make sure the the nut area is perfectly square; then I glue it.

I see nothing wrong with the joint once I hand plane the roughness and the part where the blade bent a little

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 18:14:34

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

It appears 'wonky' in two planes. I threw away a couple of these when I was trying to do this myself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 18:20:04

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Escribano)

Yeah I am aware, all I have to do hand plane it. It would be different if the piece went a concave that I would be screwed - since it is convex I just have to plane it a little and it will be perfect

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 18:37:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

I see nothing wrong with the joint once I hand plane the roughness and the part where the blade bent a little

Ok just checking. Once again I want to caution you about the dangers of hand planing and the potential that such actions could cause you to do actual woodworking....not to mention *gasp* that you might enjoy it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 19:12:02

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

So there is nothing wrong?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 19:20:19

Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 2 2011 19:45:58

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 19:45:03

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to n85ae)

Looking good man, keep us posted. Think about your glue set up too and maybe run through it without glue to make sure your clamp positions will work etc. Set it up so the joint will be square and clamped from more than one side because thing can drift when you put glue on and start clamping.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 19:49:29

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks dude! I am heading out tonight to buy a few small hand planers, I have the larger one but its a little bulky

And for glue I am probably going to use Lepage carpenters hand glue... That is if there is not anything wrong with using that. What do you guys think?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 19:55:55

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

So there is nothing wrong?

None, except that I'm sarcastic. As your Uncle Andy says in addition to doing dry run, you might want to put a piece of waxed paper or just paper under the joint on teh table to keep the sqeezeout for sticking int to the table. I use the wrappers from Tunnock's biscuits. The only reason I eat them is to save the wrappers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 20:00:54

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to n85ae)

I need a quick reply: which planer should I buy.

This one
http://www.rona.ca/shop/~6-58-in.-plane-stanley-62435_!planes_shop

or this one

http://www.rona.ca/shop/~7-in.-plane-stanley-62434_!planes_shop

Also should I square up the nutline before or after I glue together the scarf joint?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2011 22:51:40

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to cRobson12)

I think I would get the low angle block plane even though I have two of each of those.
You can get the old planes like that on eBAy for very cheap. But the block plane will do lots of stuff even though plane snobs diss them.

You should try to square thing up as much as possible before you glue them. It makes it easier to get clamps on them an they stay in line better.

And if your school does not have a bunch of sharpening stones you can google search "scary sharp system" and see how you can use progressively fines grades of wet and dry sand paper to sharpen your plane iron. The advantage is you don't have to buy a bunch of expansive stones right away. But if you get int o this that is a good place to put your money later.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2011 0:58:43

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: The challenge issued by my scho... (in reply to estebanana)

Damn too late. I already went out to the store and found a 3 inch footprint hand planer . I think it will get the job done - and if it doesn't I will either return it and get the 7 inch or use the large 2 handed planer.

I have some sharpening stones in my pa's work shop and I think my school also has some.

I want to use as many hand tools as possible when making this project, I find that power tools make things less fun so I am going to try my best to square the pieces up by hand, and if that fails I will just run it through the jointer a couple times.

I guess I contradict myself a little, because I also love making jigs for power machine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2011 1:13:00