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HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

Picado's shoulder position 

Hey guys, especially the great players here..
Is it ok to practice picado in the classical position?
When playin in the flamenco position with the guitar over my right thigh, my shoulder gets really sore. I have very stiff shoulders and I find it hard to raise my elbow around to my shoulder height for prolong periods of time when I'm playing.
I would keep my hand position the same way as if it was in the flamenco position..

So is it ok?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 5:43:18
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

Yes, absolutely , whatever works for you and is comfortable is the right way.
There are even advantages of holding the guitar in the classical way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 6:31:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

Hey guys, especially the great players here..
Is it ok to practice picado in the classical position?
When playin in the flamenco position with the guitar over my right thigh, my shoulder gets really sore. I have very stiff shoulders and I find it hard to raise my elbow around to my shoulder height for prolong periods of time when I'm playing.
I would keep my hand position the same way as if it was in the flamenco position..

So is it ok?


No it is not ok. It does not look cool enough like paco, who IS cool and the only one you should copy. Your shoulder will get used to it if you put in enough hours holding it up that way and running fast scales all day. Use Krazy glue and la bella strings and vaseline and an orange conde hermanos if you need more inspiration to hold your arm up. Also tapping your foot in twos will help you forget the pain in your arm and neck. Remember to start now cuz you are not getting any younger. Do you think Paco complained about his shoulder when he was a poor starving child practicing guitar all day with his leg tied to a chair, just so he could one day feed his family?? If you are not warmed up, drink some alcohol and smoke some weed too and then push yourself past your comfy speed limit until it burns, you can do it. And don't sit in traditional postion cuz it is also not cool for playing jazz chords, yet not as un cool as classical position. When you get older and fatter you can use a foot stool, but not always just in case you get tired. Make sure you are also not wasting time playing traditional picados, learn your jazz modes and use a compas metronome. Practice to your camaron CDS so you can also pick up some cante accompaniment since that is the only kind of cante left, camaron style. Oh and stick your pinky OUT....just um...because it looks cool.


Ok sorry just messing with you. It was just some of your questions relate to recent threads and I couldn't resist....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 8:31:22
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to Ricardo

WOW tough teacher , thats the way to get through to 'em ...
whatever you say ....and i take on board the bit about

quote:

If you are not warmed up, drink some alcohol and smoke some weed too


Thats what the man said , officer.........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 9:51:38

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

smoke some weed


Already done...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 11:06:01
 
michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

No it is not ok. It does not look cool enough like paco, who IS cool and the only one you should copy. Your shoulder will get used to it if you put in enough hours holding it up that way and running fast scales all day. Use Krazy glue and la bella strings and vaseline and an orange conde hermanos if you need more inspiration to hold your arm up. Also tapping your foot in twos will help you forget the pain in your arm and neck. Remember to start now cuz you are not getting any younger. Do you think Paco complained about his shoulder when he was a poor starving child practicing guitar all day with his leg tied to a chair, just so he could one day feed his family?? If you are not warmed up, drink some alcohol and smoke some weed too and then push yourself past your comfy speed limit until it burns, you can do it. And don't sit in traditional postion cuz it is also not cool for playing jazz chords, yet not as un cool as classical position. When you get older and fatter you can use a foot stool, but not always just in case you get tired. Make sure you are also not wasting time playing traditional picados, learn your jazz modes and use a compas metronome. Practice to your camaron CDS so you can also pick up some cante accompaniment since that is the only kind of cante left, camaron style. Oh and stick your pinky OUT....just um...because it looks cool.


Ok sorry just messing with you. It was just some of your questions relate to recent threads and I couldn't resist....


hahaha
that was the most helpful and entertaining post from all those picado threads,
thanks very much ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 13:14:08
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

hahaha thanks for the advice ricardo =P

oh yeah, for the rest of the story.. it's just for practice picado, burns if i do 45mins of chromatic scales..
for everything else i'll have it in the normal cool PDL orange conde pinkie out weed smoking heavy drinking position...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 13:25:59
 
rombsix

Posts: 7483
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

No it is not ok. It does not look cool enough like paco, who IS cool and the only one you should copy. Your shoulder will get used to it if you put in enough hours holding it up that way and running fast scales all day. Use Krazy glue and la bella strings and vaseline and an orange conde hermanos if you need more inspiration to hold your arm up. Also tapping your foot in twos will help you forget the pain in your arm and neck. Remember to start now cuz you are not getting any younger. Do you think Paco complained about his shoulder when he was a poor starving child practicing guitar all day with his leg tied to a chair, just so he could one day feed his family?? If you are not warmed up, drink some alcohol and smoke some weed too and then push yourself past your comfy speed limit until it burns, you can do it. And don't sit in traditional postion cuz it is also not cool for playing jazz chords, yet not as un cool as classical position. When you get older and fatter you can use a foot stool, but not always just in case you get tired. Make sure you are also not wasting time playing traditional picados, learn your jazz modes and use a compas metronome. Practice to your camaron CDS so you can also pick up some cante accompaniment since that is the only kind of cante left, camaron style. Oh and stick your pinky OUT....just um...because it looks cool.




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 13:26:50
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil


quote:

Is it ok to practice picado in the classical position? When playin in the flamenco position with the guitar over my right thigh, my shoulder gets really sore.

if you're gonna play flamenco so don't practice in classical position
actually for me when I play picado in classical position my shoulder gets really sore nd it start hurtin

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2011 13:27:06
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 854
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

Does anyone know how tall Paco de Lucia was?
In general I want to know the body height of maestros. I think this subject is definitely worth discussing because these days I'm watching a lot of youtube videos and analyzing the right hand posture and sitting position of flamenco guitarists.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2020 18:30:32
 
mt1007

Posts: 139
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Does anyone know how tall Paco de Lucia was?
In general I want to know the body height of maestros. I think this subject is definitely worth discussing because these days I'm watching a lot of youtube videos and analyzing the right hand posture and sitting position of flamenco guitarists.



Have you done a Bing or Google search?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2020 19:59:14
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Does anyone know how tall Paco de Lucia was?

I think he was 7’ 2”.

Also, I’ve always thought Picasso’s shoulder position looks awkward and is generally not recommended.




That’s it. That’s enough helpful stuff for one day. It’s not like I’m getting paid for this...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2020 20:26:18
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to RobF

I think upper 6 to 7 feet might be right. I got to take my picture with Paco and he was a lot taller than me, but I’m short.

Tomato is also taller like Paco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2020 20:32:08
 
ric

 

Posts: 69
Joined: Dec. 27 2010
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

Don't forget, also, to practice until your fingers bleed, and when they do, forego the vaseline--that's for wimps. And then you need to practice, bloodied, until your strings break, but the trick is to learn to be able to anticipate them breaking, and at just the right time, put your face in the path of the breaking string--it makes a great sound (make sure it's in compas) and over time you can count the number of scars on your face--if you can still count. Only then will you have achieved duende....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2020 15:05:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Does anyone know how tall Paco de Lucia was?
In general I want to know the body height of maestros. I think this subject is definitely worth discussing because these days I'm watching a lot of youtube videos and analyzing the right hand posture and sitting position of flamenco guitarists.


Good idea. Perhaps after you have completed your study and in depth analysis, you will be ready to get a Flamenco guitar?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2020 16:27:00
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 854
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Perhaps after you have completed your study and in depth analysis, you will be ready to get a Flamenco guitar?

After I get a good handle on main 6 flamenco techniques and start playing some flamenco I'll consider getting a flamenco guitar.

@admins
I just reached 500 posts. Where's my Foroflamenco Blanca? Ricardo Marlow Signature Model would be awesome.

quote:

Have you done a Bing or Google search?

Google says Paco was 1,72m. But anyone can say any random number. To me he looks like a 1,80m guy. Can someone on the foro feed us information from reliable sources? Some of the guys on the foro must have met him.

Another maestros Tomatito, Paco Pena, Sabicas, all the guys from Morao family, V. Amigo, M. Sanlucar and the list goes on. It would be great if anyone can share his own experience and opinion on the body height of maestros.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 22 2020 12:17:50
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to devilhand

quote:

@admins
I just reached 500 posts. Where's my Foroflamenco Blanca? Ricardo Marlow Signature Model would be awesome.

Don’t hold your breath.

You might be able to get a Signature T-shirt, however, but you’ll have to mail him the shirt and a Sharpie pen. Just don’t send a Racer X shirt, or you’ll never see it again...learned that one the hard way after my 500th.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 22 2020 14:25:00
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Can someone on the foro feed us information from reliable sources?


What would you consider a reliable source?
I've met Paco. I looked after him, in fact, for a concert at the Royal festival hall in London many years back.

However I didn't measure his height or ask him his height. I know he's shorter than me and I'm 6'2''.

I can't imagine anyone else here who's met him would've had their tailors tape measure on them at the time either.

So I don't see you getting the empirical evidence you require.

Ha! Funnily enough. I may actually have clue.
(I've said this story before I think)

After the show when everyone had left and we were packing up the dressing rooms etc

I went into Pacos dressing room and he'd left a little black ribbon that would've come from the tailor who supplied his suit for the gig. I took that little ribbon and kept it in my guitar case for many years (kind of like a lucky charm). I think it had the tailors name on it.
I've just realised I haven't seen it for some time. I'll check my other cases. If I find it, I'll tell you the tailors name. You could ring them and ask.
Watch this space
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 22 2020 17:20:45
 
Grisha

 

Posts: 1251
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

Paco was about my height...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 22 2020 20:06:12
 
kitarist

Posts: 1178
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to Grisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Paco was about my height...


Everyone d-hand now frantically googling "grisha goryachev height"

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 22 2020 20:10:17
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 854
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Everyone d-hand now frantically googling "grisha goryachev height"

I bet everyone is googling it even if they know it will lead to nothing. Nothing wrong with that. Only takes a few seconds.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 10:07:40
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12680
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to Grisha

I’m 5’6





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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 16:45:00
 
TonyGonzales84

 

Posts: 78
Joined: Apr. 23 2020
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

Just a second, Ricardo, before I get out my trusty trig & log tables, what is the distance between your eyes, because I'd hate to scale your nose or ears, knowing that being cartilageinous, they continue growing throughout one's life...

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Tony
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 18:30:19
 
kitarist

Posts: 1178
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to TonyGonzales84

quote:

what is the distance between your eyes


You can work with this for an initial estimate (from http://neildodgson.com/pubs/EI5291A-05.pdf); the variability is not that large.



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Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 19:43:55
 
Piwin

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to kitarist

I will not make a joke relating this chart to the thread on measuring nut width.

I will not.

Absolutely not.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 20:02:47
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 854
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

what is the distance between your eyes


You can work with this for an initial estimate (from http://neildodgson.com/pubs/EI5291A-05.pdf); the variability is not that large.



Do you have a graph of the normal distribution for forehead height? Looks like I need to measure Paco's forehead first to get a good estimation for his body height.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 21:03:55
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3146
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Looks like I need to measure Paco's forehead first


Good God! We are veering into the pseudoscience of Phrenology. After measuring Paco's forehead, measure the distance from his temples to the first bumps appearing on the parietal bone of his cranium. After performing these measurements we will discuss what this all means in terms of flamenco.

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 22:28:19
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to BarkellWH

Now we’re talking, Bill. We need more info on this. Links and what have you.

Why...you mean to tell me a couple of well placed budoinks to the old noggin with an 8oz ball peen hammer might just be enough to get one an express ticket to DuendeVille?

This is the business. Finally, something practical that we can try at home. But first we need more info on where these bumps have to go. This is a data-driven discussion group. Fascinating stuff, flamencophrenology.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 23 2020 23:01:49
 
TonyGonzales84

 

Posts: 78
Joined: Apr. 23 2020
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to HolyEvil

Alrighty, Mr Corna, you've now got a bell curve, courtesy of Konstantin, that, you can start a probabilistic estimate with. You can probably also now dig up bell curves for arm lengths and leg lengths, as functions of standing heights, then you can scale the gazillions of online shots of PdL (and everyone else that will end up in your study) and give us some seriously data-driven numbers, with, of course, standard deviations of all data and results!

I look forward to the tabulated comparisons, with pics,of course, of PdL, Manolo Sanlucar, Vicente Amigo, and all of the rest of the current-era maestros, especially when compared with the past generations's maestros (Sabicas, Niño Ricardo, Melchor de Marchena, Ramon Montoya, Manolo de Huelva, etc) and their traditional way of holding the guitar. (Don't forget to include Paco de Lucena: if he'd been any taller or shorter, could he still have brought in tremolo, or played with a sock on his hand?)

For someone claiming to not have a flamenco guitar, yet (and might never actually acquire one?), I will give you credit for doing some deep mining of the Foro: this is from a 9 1/2 year-old thread.

Tony

PS
Are Ricardo's and Paco's respective shoe heels the same heights in both photos? Hmmmmm....

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Tony
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2020 1:00:18
 
RobF

Posts: 950
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Picado's shoulder position (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I think this subject is definitely worth discussing because these days I'm watching a lot of youtube videos and analyzing the right hand posture and sitting position of flamenco guitarists.

To bring the thread to a more serious note, I think Paco’s crossed leg position was initially a bit of an outlier which ended up being copied by many and then became mainstream. It seemed to work for him, although I’m not sure if it was actually a good idea in a general sense. I don’t really know. There have been discussions on here that have focussed on physiology, I think some are specifically related to his posture, and they are probably worth seeking out. Main thing is, whatever the position chosen, it hopefully should not cause harm, as what may be OK for one person might cause real issues in another over time. But I’m a little out of my depth here, probably more than a little, and there are members far more qualified to address the topic than me.

Maybe something you could look into is whether he maintained that posture throughout his career, or if he moved away from it in later years.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2020 2:28:16
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