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RE: New vs Old
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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 RE: New vs Old (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
Stephen
In the end it doesnt matter. Wheater you build your own design or someone elses you´ll have to devellop your own guitars, understand the wood, the bracing, make it suit your persobnal vibrations. I have a taste of sound and feel and i have to build to that taste never mind the design. If I wasnt doing so, I would be cheating myself and in the long run i would be a lousy luthier.
Design is basically just some little sticks on a 2,2mm piece of lumber with a hole. The rest is hard work, lots of dedication and loads of Blah - blah.
I´ve done copyes but I dont like any of the plans out there.... The LMI Barbero plan was the one that liked the most. The Sabicas Barbero plan and the Reyes Plan, I clearly dislike. But thats me and my way of building.
All roads lead to Rome and in guitar building that counts to.
Too bad you did not understand what I wrote.
I understood it but sometimes it's better not to say anything. Everyone has got his own mental acuity and this is to say that no one is actually wrong but that we all have our idiosyncrasies and that we should expound on these with our innate talents.
No one has an absolute final say on what is the absolute final style or way in which to build. It usually comes down to particular taste in various designs. When I expound on the Reyes design or something similar, I don't expect all guitar builders to jump on the wagon of my good pleasure, I merely let builders know that I think the pattern is worth taking a look at.
I've had a few builders world-wide tell me that it is a good plan to build with but this is not going to appeal to all builders. I understand that everyone has their own mind about things.
But to tell me and others that the best way to build is in their own style by their own intuitive skills; although half true, is not the complete truth, because we all learn from other designs and voices in this world, and this would smack of a closed intellect, not only about sharing with others but trying to promote an exclusive sense of "My way is the best, and everyone should take note of it."
Most Spanish builders don't think this way, as I have known builders and artists, alike, who feel the system is secure when there is a sharing mode among their peers, either by investigating other designs or working directly with a master builder.
For example: The Granada builders who have studied alongside the master builders in that area reflect much of their work.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jan. 24 2011 14:26:46
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to estebanana)
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Tom,
You're basically cashing in on the imprimatur of Reyes' name by associating yourself so closely with his design. To a certain extent yes you have done a service to clarify guitar making to those who would like to build that plan. But on the other hand you drive it home over and over again that you are the one who has drawn the plan and that's great, but you're not expressing the other side of what it takes to grow as a guitar maker. In not voicing that side you're confusing the issue of original work with bench copy work.
I have no problem with you drawing any other guitar makers plan, but if you think for five seconds that I or anyone else trained to design from the ground up can't do the same thing you'e mistaken. You just happen to be in the seat of power and have a reputation so doors get opened to you to publish. Several of us who know how to analyze could do the same job without being sinverrguenza about hogging up the credit and being such self promotional bloviators.
The part that you are leaving out is salient, that is that copying is the road to understanding how the guitar works. We all do it from the beginning and that is how we learn to compare. But how about handing someone a yardstick, compass, T square and triangle and telling them to draw a model based on an orginal plantilla? People would wash out a lot faster, but those who could stick with it would learn how to parse through a design by any luthier and understand how it works. It' s like that novel by Somerset Maugham, The Razors Edge . The protagonist Larry seeks a life of contemplative learning and turns from his high born position to travel to the East and study Buddhism. Eventually he gets to a great master and practices away up in them thar North Indian hills, but after many years of study finally figures out that in order to self actuate he must burn his books, trust himself, and travel back into the world. Eventually any mature guitar maker will have to burn the Barbero plan, the Santos plantilla and the Reyes plan. You have to walk the razors edge alone. Students copy, mature artists invent themselves. ( If you don't want to spend the time to read the actual novel, I recommend the film The Razors Edge starring Bill Murrray as Larry. )
It's great that you have drawn this plan, but a plan is only a plan, it's like a standardized cafeteria recipe that anyone can make. It's accessable and it's universally understanadable on the surface. It is not teaching people how to cook from scratch or how to learn to taste. And thats fine, it's a starting place, but strive to not confuse it with the real work of knowing how componets of cuisine work together to make food. A master chef invents recipes according to his or her knowledge and exeperience in addtiion to looking up the occasional recipe on the internet.
A cookbook is a good start if you want to learn to cook, Julia Child wrote a great one which changed the history of cuisine in America, but at the same time she presented particular recipes, she also stressed the importance of learning to work the classical components of cuisine to invent fior one self. The part of guitar making that you are leaving out is the hard work that people like Reyes did to arrive at that guitar. It's not as simple as spoon feeding people a plan and then turning around and playing a victim if someone calls you on it. Julia Child had huge balls and she gave credit where credit is due.
And sure there's more than one way to reach your goal of being a guitar maker, but to impune by negelcting to mention the other more difficult path of actually working with sauces and gravies made from scratch is to throw out guys like Reyes himself. No one handed him a plan of a guitar purchased from GAL he had to learn from the ground up with compass, triangle, T square, making successes and failures along the way until it became clear. No one handed Maugham a plot sketch for any novel, he stole his ideas fair and square, internalized them, and then transformed them into his own ideas by a difficult long process of learning to write a novel.
I suppose you'll have some moist victimish rebuttal to my missive and that's great too. I could give a shiet, just stop throwing the master Reyes under the bus for the sake of your own ego.
May the sheep be with you,
S.
P. S' I'm not angry or disgusted, I'm still amused, but growing less so with the internet.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 25 2011 1:14:32
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Tam DL
Posts: 21
Joined: Jan. 1 2011
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to estebanana)
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This all seems to be a distinction without much difference. I do use copies, like say the fox bender, I copy it because I don't want to buy it. I bought the standard violin bender, nobody will come into my shop and criticize me for that. It's iconic, so the issue of copying doesn't even come into it. Kinda strange though, copying it would have been harder.
I always say about my own copies, if it works I can't take any credit, if it fails, it's all my fault. Not very satisfying proposition.
So let me get this straight: People who live 3-6 thousand miles from Spain, and rely on GAL plans, a few lines on paper, are somehow The People Who Copy. Meanwhile people who are born in Spain, or move there, live and breath the Spanish Tradition, are all super original, no influences but the purity of their untouched hearts.  Personally I think you should hit Tom with the appropriation of voice rhetoric, that other stuff ain't working.
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Date Jan. 25 2011 8:26:04
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
I want to add one thing. IMO, Toms Reyes plan is a lousy plan for beginners. Why. Its way to advanced and way to "strange". Its basically an asymetrical bracing based on a symetrical layout of the braces. Thats very rare. And it means that when a beginner one day after having built from Toms Reyes plan want to build something else, then its like starting from scratch. the information you have from the Reyes plan cannot be used on other more traditional building styles. Its like teaching fine French cooking to beginners. You are jumping over the basics and loosing essential information doing that.
I'm glad that you say its your opinion, because there were a few first time builders who e-mailed me to say that their first guitar was good and sounded first class.
I've had e-mails from all over the world from builders of numerous experience saying that it's a great plan, and I've personally incorporated some of this plan's ideals in other styles for classical and flamenco guitars, and I can say that it works well for some other fan braced guitar styles.
The next guitar I'm going to experiment with is a 1934 Santos, using some things I've learned from the Reyes style.
BTW, I saw your style of fan brace, and I built something close to that 15 years ago. I incorporated Romanillos bottom stiffners. and used it with an earlier Gerundino pattern. It turned out fine. There is nothing new under the sun.
Over the years I've shared information with some builders that many of you know about, and they have treated it with professional conduct and used some of it to tweak their own models.
I understand that there is a place for everyone to speak his mind about things that he is familiar with, but until you find the time to investigate what I've done, then what you say, I have to take lightly.
BTW, I've built the Sabicas Barbero model and Richard Brune wanted to keep it for his collection. Why not say "The Brune plan is a hard build" rather than trying to make people think it's no good. It is a hard build and it took me 2 months to fine-tune it, but it is a good plan.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jan. 25 2011 11:41:30
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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Both the Sabicas Barbero plan and your Reyes plan are well done and you can make a good sounding guitar out of both. As a flamenco guitarist I prefer the Barbero. Your Reyes is to classical, and its based on a guitar with a lousy flamenco setup. Guitars with a 10mm bridge setup work very differently from one with a 8mm bridge setup which is what the majority wants. So, IMO you chosed the wrong Reyes guitar to copy. Its a shame because he´s such a good builder
What I said before was that IMO your Reyes and Brune´s Barbero are not good beginners plans. They are both to weird.
When teaching, you normally make a learning curve which will include learning some basics. Using your Reyes plan is to jump over the leaning process. Yes, the guitar might sound good, but its going to be very difficult to relate to other ways of building and other sounds. Sounds that I consider to be much more flamenco. Its like starting to play flamenco using Cañizarez solo falsetas or starting to cook making Boef bourgignon.
You learn to do one thing but you have no context. Just like if you buy an advanced boatbuilding kit, you can produce a beautifull and capable boat, but it doesnt mean you´ve learnt much about boats and boatbuilding in general.
If you do another plan, I´ll most probably buy it and build it. This because I know you´ll do it with a lot of dedication and that the end result will be of a very high standard. This I respect A LOT
I´ve learnt to live with you Tom but I strongly disagree with a lot of what you write. And since your way of entering the show here on foro flamenco was the way it was, I take everything you write with a lot of distance. I´ve been here for 7 1/2 years and I´ve been on other forums as well and I´ve NEVER seen anyone entering a forum like you did. 100% autopromotion with your "fantastic" Reyes plan. a copy of the best guitar of the best builder in the world. A plan you had made and more important, that you had improved. You had improved the best guitar of the best builder in the world.
Besides you were all over the place with it. Making those of us not following your holy grail look like complete idiots.
Those were the days and I understand why you dont want to reread it.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 25 2011 12:21:22
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DoctorX2k2
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to estebanana)
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Geez...
I've always read the Luthier section of the foro... because I have some level of interest about guitarmaking since I built my one and only guitar. I don't quite understand why Anders and Stephen react they way they do though. I've read the older posts before and I've never felt that Tom Blackshear was condescending at all. Sure, he does talk about his plan... so what? If it's good or not, I don't care. He never pushed anyone into changing their designs to his. He only told some newbies interested in building guitars that his plan was available and praised it. Is he saying that it's the best design? No. Is he saying that it's a good plan? Yes.
But you two really took it up to a personal level. Why? Who knows. Did he ever talked you down about the guitars you build? Not that I know of. You keep bashing on him trying to raise your own selves. "Americans copy, that's what they're good at", "Tom doesn't catch the essence of guitarmaking, the true spirit of the old Spanish builders...", "My design is better than yours", all that kind of nonsense. You don't agree with his methods, so be it and let the guy do what he has to do, which is build guitars. If he wants to talk about his approach, then let him talk so people that might be interested can enjoy it even though you disagree. In the hand, it's in the hands of the PLAYERS.
Stop arguing about nonsense and EXCHANGE information about building, not about who did what and how great one is compared to another, or how some Reyes sound classical, nobody cares, it's a matter of personal taste. It's not a penis contest darn it. Exchange about gigs, top tuning, woods, processes, etc. Please stop talking about how evil someone is because he pushes the marketing of his guitars forward more than you do.
You all make GREAT guitars, yet very different. You approach your job in different manners... but this thread has reached a new level of self intellectual masturbation.
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Date Jan. 26 2011 0:47:59
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
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quote:
Stop arguing about nonsense and EXCHANGE information about building, not about who did what and how great one is compared to another, or how some Reyes sound classical, nobody cares, it's a matter of personal taste. It's not a penis contest darn it. Exchange about gigs, top tuning, woods, processes, etc.
***** Please stop talking about how evil someone is because he pushes the marketing of his guitars forward more than you do. *****
You're right to a certain extent it's not a penis contest. Penis contests are pretty much reserved for flamenco guitarists.
I love this joke:
How many flamenco guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?
Seven. One to change the light bulb and six to stand back with arms folded over their chests all whispering " I could do that."
Ever wonder what is really behind all that thumb nail comparing.............
Anyway.
I'm sorry you are frustrated with Anders and I. Doctor X ( I like that handle) I'm not going to back peddle and drag Tom through the mud again and recount for you the things I think he did that are wrong. I've said what I wanted to say and I have good reason for saying it.
I do see you wrote you would like to see more exchange of information about the nuts and bolts of guitar making. Well that's much more difficult when one or two people are pushing themselves commercially much harder than others.
It sets up an asymetrical power dynamic where makers may think, why should I give information to a guy who's angling to out do me in the market place? There are some guitar maker chat sites where no commercial promotion is allowed and the discussion is more pure and focused on the nuts and bolts. Those sites are also heavily moderated and it's a trade off between a freewheeling crazy talk sites an one that is more like a library.
To Anders and I our point is not nonsense, I think perhaps it's more cultural. He and I have a different idea about guitar making culture and we want to see it be acknowledged if not respected. Cultural issues always have more gray areas, and are sometimes difficult to explain. In flamenco music there is some protocol and some form, there is a way to conduct yourself with respect to the art of others. In a subtle, but definite way Anders and I are try to articulate what our boundaries are in terms of how we see guitar making culture. If your boundaries get transgressed you have the right to ask that they not be. If that asking for respect of boundaries goes unheard or is not taken seriously, well then you get a rude awakening. There may even be others makers here that feel that way but they are wisely staying quiet and letting A & S be the turds in the punch bowl.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 26 2011 2:24:16
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Tam DL
Posts: 21
Joined: Jan. 1 2011
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to estebanana)
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So what exactly is stopping the other national treasures on this forum from producing Flamenco plans?
I actually do agree, that a lot of the plans out there aren't practical, they come out of some relatively meaningless connection. Some guy repairs an instrument by some famous maker, but not one of his noteworthy instruments, and sends it off to GAL.
The first classical plan they published was by a relatively lesser known maker, about a relatively hated style of building, of which her example was a departure from the norm, because she had set aside some core principles. That kind of thing.
A shop that has come on recently and is offering all kinds of plan stuff, is by a bunch of guys who used to be kitchen makers, and have for sure never seen the guitars they are providing plans and templates for.
A plan is more than the plan view of a soundboard. A real plan would be hugely more comprehensive, look at what Bogdonovich has done, whatever you think of the guitar or method, it is abundantly explained, though even he holds back, and dumbs it down. There is still a place for someone who really wants to, to get out there and do it.
How tough can it be to get a plan out there if one produces something serious with the customer in mind.
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Date Jan. 26 2011 7:03:09
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