Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: New vs Old
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
elgreco
Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA
|
 RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
Well if Anders feelings represent the rest of the luthiers of the forum, I apologize if stating my assumption was insulting in this thread. It was certainly not my intention to disrespect. I also did not expect that it would have such a bearing, since I am just an average Joe Schmoe, so I cannot imagine that there is anything that I could say to insult your sweat and tears. But I think I have proved that this assumption or myth whatever you want to call it, was created by the whole flamenco community, the resellers (most expensive current ebay guitars are a santos and a hernandez), the luthiers (name their models after old masters, make reeditions etc.), the collectors who raise the prices, and a lot of the artists that have expressed a liking to the old guitars etc. I am a flamenco newbie so if that is the message that I get from all the segments of the community, I tend to accept it. This assumption is either right so I expect the members to elaborate or just say that they are not willing to share those secrets because that would hurt their business. That would be totally acceptable. Or it is false. I really do not see how you could prove it wrong through this discussion unless you would send me 20 of the best 70s guitars and 20 of the best 2000s guitars. I would be really happy to try them out and form a real opinion. :) But it sounds impractical and that is why I have not tried to defend my assumption.
Dinos
_____________________________
Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 11 2011 23:27:59
 |
|
malakka
Posts: 170
Joined: Jan. 14 2009
|
|
RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)
|
|
|
Every guitar is different and every guitar player is different. One man's grail can be another's junk. Some folks think that a Gerundino (one actually built by him) are the ultimate, while others think a Reyes or a Barbero or an Archangel or an Esteso are the utlimate (just naming the most hyped guitars by dealers). I have been able to try out a Gerundino a Reyes, a Reyes hijo, a Barba, couple of Devoes, a couple of nice Condes (including a real nice early 60's one) and the thing I found is that each one sounded awesome at the time in it's own way. Dealers like to hype guitars- some are "musical" than others, "this one is a real canon", "these builders are the Reyes or the Barbero of the new millenium", etc.
Perhaps you should try some guitars for sale and see what suits you. Meet some folks and try their guitars and visit some delaers. Although every guitar is different, maybe a certain luthier's or factory's (uh oh, I will now get in trouble form the luthiers) system will suit you more than others. For example, you may find the feel and sound of Condes better than a Reyes. There are so many factors in the way a guitar is built that it is overall better to judge an individual guitar than to fixate on a particular builder. Pulsation, shape of neck, scale, etc. can really influence how a guitar feels to you. Of course, you can commission a guitar to be built and have some things made to your needs.
Also, since you are in the SF, there are local luthiers in Northern California- Stephen Faulk, Glenn Canin, and Mark Berry are all in the Bay Area and make great guitars- I have tried all three and found one builder that suited me more and bought one. Just contact them and go and try one.
There are lots of threads about guitars on this foro and on the Flamenco Teacher foro if you search. It is a lot to sift through, but there is a lot of info you might find helpful or just more confusing.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 12 2011 2:57:59
|
|
Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
|
|
RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)
|
|
|
quote:
I expect the members to elaborate or just say that they are not willing to share those secrets because that would hurt their business. That would be totally acceptable. Or it is false. I really do not see how you could prove it wrong through this discussion unless you would send me 20 of the best 70s guitars and 20 of the best 2000s guitars. I would be really happy to try them out and form a real opinion. :) But it sounds impractical and that is why I have not tried to defend my assumption.
Dinos.
You´re not being fair. You´ve been here a couple of month. Some of us have been here for many years. During that time, builders like John, Tom etc (I´ll include myself as well). have been helpfull and given their opinion on more or less all topics about guitar building and guitars. Noone has been afraid of hurting their own business. So please take it easy.....
Besides this is a forum and a very lively one. You want the members to answer according to your rules. But thats not the way forums work. You get what there are and nothing else. Like it or not.
I STRONGLY disagree with what you say. But I accept your right to say what you say. But dont get on my back for disagreeing with you. I have my rights to have an opinion as well?????? I´m not trying to be deconstructive. I just disagree.
Your assuming a lot for being a newbie (your own word) Maybe in your part of the world, things are the way you assume. I dont know. I havent been there. Where I live, things are not like that. Almost everyone´s playing new guitars and are looking for new guitars. Old guitars you hardly see. Or you only see them in collections like the one of José Luis Postigo. And he himself is always looking around for new guitars and new builders.
To your last idea of comparing old to new guitars. It could only be done if you had a time machine and could test the old guitars when they were new as well.
All guitars have a time cyclus. They change during that time. You cant imagine how much a guitar changes during its first week, month, year etc. Besides, as Ricardo said, guitars have their days. (Violins etc as well)
Most guitars end up being more gentle, softer in the edges and with a fuller sound and feel (just like human beings) and one day they reach the point when they go down. They loose tension in their soundboard and so they loose projection and power. They get tired. (Just like human beings as well)
You say that we cant prove you wrong. to this I will only say that you yourself cant prove that you´re right. In the end we cant prove anything nor you, nor me. But we can both have our opinions.
So please accept that I totally disagree with what you say and that I think its a mental idea that you´ve develloped and that its not based on reality. If you want to go deeper with this, try not to listen to myth and try not to mix sought after with value or quality. Sought after is being determined by economical market structures more than anything else. And most of all, try listening to the ones disagreeing with you as well. If you only accept opinions like your onw, then you´ll never learn anything.
As TANuñez says: A good guitar is a good guitar. Regardless of it's maker. To this I will add regardless of how old it is. 
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 12 2011 4:45:42
|
|
elgreco
Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA
|
|
RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
It is true, that I have found it really hard to find flamenco guitars in the States or Greece. In the States electric guitars are by far the most popular with acoustics coming distant second. So the only "flamenco guitars" that Guitar Center (the biggest music instruments chain in America) carries are Cordobas and Manuel Rodriguez. :) I am not going to even comment about their quality. They are factory built anyways. The few places ( I only count a handful around the States, luthiermusic in NY, GSP in SF, GSI and Dan Zeff/Trilogy in Santa Monica and LA respectively, Blue Guitar in SD, Rosewood in Seattle and a couple more in Texas). That means you need to pay hundreds of dollars and travel thousands of miles to try the 20 guitars/shop that these shops carry. To the ones I have been (GSP, luthiermusic and Guitar Gallery) I only found old beaten up flamenco guitars that are sold as consignment so are jacked up in price. (luthiermusic excluded) The pushy staff are really not in the mood to let you try them unless they are sure you are there to buy a guitar which they are really trying to shove down your throat. In the Guitar Gallery in Washington DC I had to sit sideways on their staircase to play the two guitars that they allowed me to play (had to bring them down from some shelves in the roof out of dusty cases). It was totally ridiculous but the whole place was a shack. Luhtiermusic was the only place that gave me a whole room full of guitars and let me alone to play. Unfortunately I chose the room with the under 4K guitars (back then I couldn't imagine that I would need more than 4k to play a decent guitar) and most of them were terrible estudio Condes and some Carillos which I personally find really hard to play. As for Greece there is only one place you can find flamenco guitars (Andromidas.gr carries Bernabes, Carillos and Burguets) and they also are very careful in bringing down all their guitars and taking them out of their shrink-wrap. I perhaps should have visited Lazarides who is the only Greek flamenco guitar luthier but had no time this Xmas break when I was down there. I have not visited the local luthiers here in SF although I am very well aware of them. Hopefully I will soon but I am afraid that they also may get frustrated if some punk like me shows up just to try their guitars and then disappear without buying one. I am totally fine by you disagreeing with me. I never said otherwise and I agree that my assumption may very well be a mental idea. But let me make a case for some partial truth. Condes have the biggest market share in the flamenco guitars. The new Condes can not be compared with the old Condes. I think these are facts not just my opinion. So I created this thread to ask why. I didn't mean that any of you, can never create a guitar as good if not better than a Barbero but maybe my initial post sounded too absolute and unfair. But I also wonder, if the guitar makers that you guys apprenticed with, shared all their knowledge or kept some aces under their sleeves.
D.
_____________________________
Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 12 2011 9:27:58
|
|
Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
|
|
RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: elgreco
Unfortunately my father is a poor Greek farmer that didn't even get the chance to embezzle some German EU funding.
:(
Dinos
No wonder. The EU agrar subsidy system has been set up by major agriculture combines, and is beeing sacked accordingly by big companies, whilst small farmers are in fact being screwed over. ( - And their farms then being boughed off by the same companies.)
Just don´t get me going about the mafia sucking-off cockaigne in Brussels, inititated by European gangsters ...
-
As much as I wellcome it that some stores let you alone with their guitars, I wonder how trsuting they are in the same time. For, while I am used to handling cautiously and watching out for no knobs or zips to be in the way, avoiding scratches, I know that many are not of such consideration, banging up guitars within minutes.
What wood is concerned, allow me to quote what I once wrote to a luthier:
quote:
Four years ago I was researching on sunken trunks in northern USA and Canada ( there are many trunks in the south too, but warmer water there won´t promise well conservated findings and the trees there did not have arctic conditions during growth). Some rivers and lakes to this day are full with trunks from 200 years ago and from trees that were up to 400 years and more old. Hard woods as well as conifers, most of a denseness that can hardly be found these days. Many trunks lying in just 2-3 meters depth, most not deeper than 10 meters. An incredible treasure right below one´s hands.
The states until some years ago would even support private salvage, as they wanted the river / lake bottoms to be freed, but now they inquire fees for licenses, eventhough mostly very moderately still.
Someone of the traditional locals even started out retreaving trunks at Lake Michigan. He started with a canu and self-inflating balloons. Today he has a plant and exports worldwide.
After pondering on it, I however came to the assumption that local rednecks in Michigan might probably sabotage any stranger, and that other locations might be turning out of similar difficulties.
A pity. It could have been a very interesting, constructive, rewarding project and adventure.
-
The question on wood quality and aging has been interesting to me since a while.
At times however it confuses me.
...
-
What wood specimens are concerned, I am totally fascinated of Kauri. Not only astonishingly beautiful, but between 4000 and 50 000 years old. ( Can you imagine prehistorical, long since extincted animals once rubbing their backs against these same trees one´s guitar would be made off? I guess, I just could not stop looking at such an hypothetical instrument on a stand, day dreaming.) The sellers in New Zealand stopped replying though, after I had critiszed them for using such unique material for silly furnitures instead of dedicating it all to instrument makers. That way they got pissed and I never obtained the kauri wood that I was dreaming to one day let someone build a guitar of for me. - But meanwhile I am more after aged instruments anyway.)
What makes woods tonal quality seems not really evident yet, despite speculations like e.g. Stradivari´s violines superiority to be partically due to either Yugoslavian maple grown in a small ice age, or for having being mineralized on their tranpsort through seewater down to Cremona etc. - Or that urban myth according to which best tops were recognized through narrow grain.
What sounds plausible to me so far is that density will contribute. And those sunken trunks mentioned above are of trees which in historically primare forest were not only exposed to pretty cold winters, but also in very dense and dark forests ( = slow growing ) like can´t be found these days. ( Let alone trees of centuries of age.)
If I was a luthier, I would certainly have a look for that ressource, as well as for kauri. And if it was just for prehistorical fascination.
- And preventing such unqiue material to be mainly be used for ol´ furnitures!
A good luthier will understand to select from contemporary choice and get the best out of the individual piece in question; but potentially better suited material possibly wouldn´t be hurting his work either.
Ruphus
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (1)
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 12 2011 13:23:55
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)
|
|
|
quote:
When too many sensible people share an opinion, then it starts to smell awfully like a fact to me. Plans for trips to Southern California and Madrid Spain are in the works. So soon I will have the opportunity to try a 70s Esteso and a 2010 Esteso reedition. These you can compare, no? I will let you and the forum know what my impression was.
Dinos
Because many share an opinion about something does not necessarily make it a "fact" at all. Often it simply represents a certain "zeitgeist," a feeling that everyone wants to get on the bandwagon, not wanting to miss out on the latest "new thing." When you state that you will let the forum know what your impression was of the guitars you try out, it will be just that, your impression, i.e., your opinion. It will be neither ground truth nor a fact. It will be your opinion, as equally valid as the opinion of every other member of this forum, even those with whom you disagree.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 12 2011 17:32:53
|
|
elgreco
Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA
|
|
RE: New vs Old (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
Well we have veered off from the thread's topic but by definition my opinion is what I perceive to be the fact about something. Just the semantics change. There are millions of computers out there that calculate 1 + 1 to 2. Generations of mathematicians claim that 1+1=2. Even statisticians claim that there is 100% probability that 1+1=2. You may want to call the statement 1+1=2 a zeitgeist, but I call it a fact. Regardless, even if it is not a fact, can I not voice my opinion? My initial assumption set a point of reference. You must have a common reference to start a discussion. The people that do not agree with the reference system could argue against just that or just not participate, and the people that agree with the reference system can voice their corresponding "opinions". I think what happened here was the ideal outcome. My opinion came closer to the center and the other extreme's opinion did the same.
:)
Dinos
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
When too many sensible people share an opinion, then it starts to smell awfully like a fact to me. Plans for trips to Southern California and Madrid Spain are in the works. So soon I will have the opportunity to try a 70s Esteso and a 2010 Esteso reedition. These you can compare, no? I will let you and the forum know what my impression was.
Dinos
Because many share an opinion about something does not necessarily make it a "fact" at all. Often it simply represents a certain "zeitgeist," a feeling that everyone wants to get on the bandwagon, not wanting to miss out on the latest "new thing." When you state that you will let the forum know what your impression was of the guitars you try out, it will be just that, your impression, i.e., your opinion. It will be neither ground truth nor a fact. It will be your opinion, as equally valid as the opinion of every other member of this forum, even those with whom you disagree.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 12 2011 17:53:01
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.125 secs.
|
Printable Version
