New vs Old

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New vs Old

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elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

New vs Old

The most sought after guitars have been made by dead people. Why the contemporary luthiers do not make guitars that can compete with the 50s and 70s guitars? The designs seem to be the same, the wood is the same, so what is so hard to reverse-engineer? I am not sure if this has been discussed but I believe it is a very interesting topic.

Cheers
Dino

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 0:50:15

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

The most sought after guitars have been made by dead people.

? I don't think so

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 1:45:29

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Hi Andy,

I tend to believe that most flamenco guitarists would sell their soul to get their hands to a 70s Esteso, a Reyes, a Bernabe, a Ramirez, a Gerundino, a Barbero, a Contreras etc. Their prices (10x higher) -if you can find somebody that would be willing to part with them- imply that this is true. For most of these guys, their sons continue to make guitars but they do not compare to their father's guitars. (Take Condes for example) Many claim that their father's secrets died with them. I know next to nothing to guitar making, but I am curious what can these "secrets" be? Or if there is some other reason that today people are just not willing to create guitars that compare to the "old masters".

D.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 3:12:22

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

Not all of those people are dead though. reyes is still going at least. I'm not sure about Contrers. Is he still going?

The rareness of a guitar will also tell you a few things about it's value. As no more of these insturments are made over the years there will be fewer and fewer. A guitar made by someone who is still alive won't be that rare as there will be more to come.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 9:03:49

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to Stephen Eden)

Hi Stephen,

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

Not all of those people are dead though. reyes is still going at least. I'm not sure about Contrers. Is he still going?

Quoting La Sonanta:
"Since 1994 Manuel Reyes Junior is building flamenco guitars under the tutelage of his well know father. Just recently, Manuel Reyes Junior began to sell his own instruments, signing the label of his father with Manuel Reyes Junior. "
Reyes Sr was born in 1934 so I really wonder how much does he really do to help with guitar construction. A Reyes Jr guitar costs between 1000 and 2000 Euros when the Sr guitars cost more than 10K. So here is a good example of old vs new. Since they are both alive the one is not more rare than the other. Yet people are willing to spend a lot more money for a '69 Reyes than a new one. Any thoughts? I admit I have not played a Reyes guitar (new or old) so I cannot compare but I feel like Reyes (and perhaps Barba) seem to be the last of the "classics". Besides Lester, no one seem to be enjoying the fame of making guitars that can last the test of time. Is it just a matter of (mis)perception or is it really true that new guitars do not compare with the old ones?

Dino

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 9:19:04

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

On a separate note ( and this probably deserves its own thread), there has not been any major innovations in guitar design. Even Lester mimics a Santos Hernandez. Have contemporary designers used computer modelling for predicting the "ideal" bracing measurements for best volume and clarity? That should possible.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 9:32:16

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

there are a few factors other than are luthiers today unable to build a great guitar that jacks up the mystique/price. one is the guitar has proven itself because it was built "back in the day" whereas guitars built in the past 10 years or so are in the process of proving themselves.

the other factor is the mystique. the guitars from the "old days" develop a mystique that drives up the price and increases the drooling. this phenomenon occurs in many areas other than guitars. a good example is rolex. a new rolex mil-sub will run about $6k or thereabouts and is techniquely better than a mil-sub built back in the late 50's. however, those mil-subs built back in the 50's are the model james bond used and the value of said watch is about 11 times the current price--2 50's mil-subs recently sold on e-bay for $63K and $66K respectively.

a good example from the music field is stradivarius. there have been numerous blind tests of a strad and a modern violin and the modern violin has beaten the strads many times over. i bet if people did blind tests many of the old guitars would be beaten by newer guitars. i myself have played several aaron green guitars that are by far better than my old 66 ramirez and other old guitars that i have played that are considered to be from the great luthiers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 10:25:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

You say that the most sought after guitar = the most expensive ones.

Price in our economical world is decided on availability. Therefor the most expensive guitars are the ones made by dead luthiers or ones with a closed waiting list.

Just like an old Ferrari which is not in production is more expensive than a new one fresh from the factory.
Does this make the old Faerrari the better one. No.... Just more expensive and sought after by collectors with enough money to not caring about putting an extra zero behind the price.

Guitars and their pricing is 100% the same

IMO is NOT interesting at all. Just stupid economy

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 10:25:38

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Keith and Anders,

Keith, in a recent thread about favorite 3 luthiers you listed Ramirez first and Green second. :)

From contemporary guitarists only Andy listed another contemporary luthier as his favorite (himself) :)
Stephen Faulk listed Gerundino, Bellido and Barba. Barberos, Reyes and old Condes seemed to be the winners in the thread (Green being an exception, and btw I am close of getting one myself).
But I am glad that there are people out there that put my original assumption to the question. I honestly did not expect to defend it but I was hoping that there are no guitar making secrets lost in recent history never to be retrieved again. As I mentioned earlier, I believe that higher prices "IMPLY" higher demand, and higher demand by players (not collectors) has a direct correlation to higher quality and trust for the end product. I do not believe we can talk about a specific guitar but the trust that a particular maker enjoys that he is consistent in achieving that level of quality. I have played a few guitars myself but not enough to have a real opinion. Mainly because the old guitars (Santos & Ramirez) that I have played were not in a good condition or sounded too soft and sweet. But I have played anything from Alhambras (300$) to Bernabes (~$10K). The Bernabe (classical), and to a lesser extent a '93 Conde were by far the best. I have played many recent Condes that were simply terrible. I have also played many Carillos, but I find them really hard to play to bring out their quality. Same goes for Monrads (classical). Many of the old guitars seem to create a lot of volume and great lyric sound with very little effort. And by the way, those were the most expensive ones. Maybe the new ones were not broken into. But recenlty I went with a friend of mine that does not play music but his untrained ear could definitely appraise 4 guitars in the same order that they were priced (from 1750Euros to 5000Euros). So even though I agree that many times, economy is crazy, I do not buy that argument when it comes to guitars.

D.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 11:12:57

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

Andy listed another contemporary luthier as his favorite (himself)

lol did I? Jeez...

Just look at 1000 Youtube videos of current professional guitarists in Andalucia. It's going to be 50% Conde (living), 10% Reyes (living), 10% Sanchis (living), and the rest Barba, Dominguez, Pedro de Miguel (uh-oh, one died), Gonzalez, Manzanero, Maldonado, DeVoe etc. (all living).

Maybe 3% will be older Ramirez and Gerundino.

1% will be Arcangel, Barbero, Santos, Contreras, Bernabe, etc. combined

That's not just because guitars from dead makers are in short supply, it's because people really want to play new guitars by living makers.
Desirable from a player's point of view is very different from desirable from a collector's point of view. There would be no point in collecting Sanchis Lopez guitars because everybody has them. You collect what's rare.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 12:19:08

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

Have contemporary designers used computer modelling for predicting the "ideal" bracing measurements for best volume and clarity?

haha. I'm sure they have tried. We know more and more about the science of acoustics and wood properties than ever before. If you believe guitars aren't as good now then using more computers is most definitely NOT the way to go.

In my own guitarmaking the formula is simple: the more time I spend playing the guitar and fine tuning the braces, the better it turns out.
A master guitarmaker be it today or any other time just knows exactly where to take off that .001" of wood to make the guitar sound better. Literally. There is no "computer ideal" guitar, that's why so many different bracing systems are still used. They all yield different results and have to be worked differently and please different people.

In my shop that I rent from another guitar maker I have access to doing Chladni patterns and spectrum analysis on my guitars. Also Lucchi meter speed of sound readings in addition to calculating density, Elasticity, Q, etc. on tonewoods. And sophisticated deflection testing. In the end, nothing can tell you how to make a good guitar with soul that someone will actually want to play except yourself and your ears. Just like always.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 12:54:10

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

Have contemporary designers used computer modelling for predicting the "ideal" bracing measurements for best volume and clarity?

When Tacoma guitars were re-introduced, the new approach was made with computer modelling as you suggest. In my opinion succesfully so, with Tacoma being the best in mass producing acoustic guitars, right away since their very first output.

But this is not to say that handcrafted luthiery was to be obsolete in any way.

Without wanting to contradict knowledged minds like Mr. Eliasson ( heard a couple of tracks made with your guitars lately and have been impressed, Anders!) whose opionion on marketery and collector´s influence I absolutely agree with; there remain two possible criteria in my mind regarding old guitars.

#
Fine tuning. A skill said to have been common with traditional Spanish luthiery, but scarcely known of today; which appears like a plausible option to me.

#
Aging of wood. Whatever cause might be, whether gradual drying out over time, eventual transubstantiation of contained resin or possible change to wood fibres ...
To my ears there seems something special with well maintained old guitars.
They seem to come in with what I like to associate with "clay-like sound".

Just vague assumption.

Ruphus

PS:
Hadn´t seen your post right above, Deteresa.
Interesting how you picked the same quote and had similar thoughts to it!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 13:14:18

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

this is an interesting discussion, I dont have much to add because i have only tried a few really nice guitar, and never owned anything nicer than my current alhambra 3f. very good read though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 13:30:02

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

For most of these guys, their sons continue to make guitars but they do not compare to their father's guitars.

Some day you should try playing a Manuel Reyes Hijo guitar.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 13:56:21

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

A Reyes Jr guitar costs between 1000 and 2000 Euros when the Sr guitars cost more than 10K.

Dino I don't know where you got this info but it's way off. A Reyes Hijo new is around 10,000 to 12,000 Euros. At least some that I have seen for sale. Used, around 8,000 to 10,000 Euros. He too has his own waiting list.

I don't think old is necessarily better. A lot of "new" luthiers are producing instruments just as good. I think a lot of people (not all) want to own these historic guitars simply because of their historic value. Some for sentimental reasons. I admire the flamencos of Miguel Rodriguez Sr. I'm currently trying to get my hands on one to gather information for measurments in order to build something similar. I would love to own a late 50's or early 60's simply for sentimental reasons. His work inspires me. Other builders who build in the style of Santos would probably want to own a Santos because it's their source of inspiration.

Then you have the collectors simply wanting them to put in display cases, or people wanting one just so they can say they own one.

Many makers today build an instrument just as good. I copied a Santos a few years back that a former teacher of mine owned. Very light weight, responsive and punchy. However, it reminded me of a Shelton Farretta blanca that in my opinion, was better. It too has all those characteristics. The Santos was over 70 years old though so I don't know how close it's current sound compares to it's sound after construction.

I think current makers use these plans by the legends because they simply work and there is no real need to change much. Devoe started off building in the style of Santos but now builds more in the style of Torres. Aaron Green I believe is inspired by Barbero. I think the maker takes on a style of the maker who inspires them and builds off of that and makes modifications to better suit their personal style.

If you want different, check out some classical guitar builders. There you find some innovative concepts from double tops to lattice bracing to elevated fingerboards to Kasha bracing patterns. This list goes on and on. For Flamenco, I don't think much change is needed. That's just my opinion.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 14:07:20

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

"The most sought after guitars", (i guess you mean moneywise???) are sought after by people who see it as their hobby to buy and have expensive guitars. I think thats the reason that drives the price of these kind of guitars.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 14:18:20

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

The most sought after guitars have been made by dead people. Why the contemporary luthiers do not make guitars that can compete with the 50s and 70s guitars?

I'm old enough to have bought some of those 50's to 70's guitars when they were new or nearly so and since I've been playing flamenco most of my 68 years I've had the opportunity to play many name brand guitars from the 30's forward. What do you know...some were pretty good, a few were sensational and a lot were total junk. Collectors inflate the price not players.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 14:39:07

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to jshelton5040)

Man I wish a had a penny every time I heard/read "Nothing compares to a 70s xxxx" (where xxx insert dead guitar maker), even if I cannot prove it to be true. :) I was hoping to unravel some dark mysteries from the graves of Andalucia but you guys are killing the Indiana Jones in me.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 15:28:58

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to TANúñez)

I stand corrected. I was looking at the current Reyes list on lasonanta. All the Hijo guitars are estudio models.

D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

quote:

A Reyes Jr guitar costs between 1000 and 2000 Euros when the Sr guitars cost more than 10K.

Dino I don't know where you got this info but it's way off. A Reyes Hijo new is around 10,000 to 12,000 Euros. At least some that I have seen for sale. Used, around 8,000 to 10,000 Euros. He too has his own waiting list.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 15:33:01

Randy Reynolds

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 23 2010

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

Any beginning luthier is going to be faced with the myth that the so-called famous makers all went to their grave with the secrets that yield unattainable sound by the current luthier generation. This is directly from Nostradamus:0)

The basic Torres pattern of shape, size and bracing pattern hasn't changed significantly for Flamenco guitars during the past 100 years and isn't apt to in the future. That's the way Flamenco likes it and that's the way it is going to stay. Not to say that there are not various grades of sound quality because there are. If you think over the last century that tens of thousands of luthiers wouldn't discover "the secret" in the formula for such a traditional design then you have become victim to the collector romanticism.

Meanwhile in the classical guitar world there has been a great deal of change inside the guitar resulting in more power and better tone quality than in the past. Sorry, it's true, myths not withstanding. Yes, they may have the same general shape but many things have changed in the last 25 years in favor of the progression of sound production. I won't bother to defend this last statement as it has already been labored to death in other forums.

I have two of my own make Flamenco guitars in my studio that I borrowed back for a client demo. Both are Cypress/Spruce. One is a traditional solid top 12 years old and the other is a eight year double top based on a 1927 Santos plantilla. Both are much improved over when they were new due to age and playing in. If they go the same way as my other instruments I can expect them to continue improving for some time. To some degree this is the "famous maker" effect.......it's called age.

For some time I owned a 1962 Ramirez Blanca made by Manuel Contreras when he worked there. One would expect this to be a very good Flamenco guitar but it wasn't. Rather, it was a very good classical guitar having mellowed out to the point where all brightness and quick separation were gone. How it sounded when new I don't know but it was no longer a premium guitar for the purpose it was made. It may have been that the guitar was made too "loose" originally so that it satisfied then but went "tubby" as it matured. It is reported that Santos had some extremely stiff spruce for many of his guitars and that is why today some of them are still really good guitars. Of course we'll not be able to hear or play them because they are imprisoned behind glass collector cases where their owners marvel at the sound secrets which died with the maker.

Every luthier is going to produce an exceptional guitar during his career. Some will produce many more than others and that is why their work is valued by the market. But my friends there is no "dime sized" magic spot that only the legendary Spanish luthiers knew about. If you want a great guitar....first find a good one that you like and then keep it for 20 years and play it strongly. End of rant.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 15:39:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

What you are looking for is a myth. Maybe you came to the wrong place.
Dont expect guitarbuilders to say that old is better than what they (we) are producing ourselves.
Maybe you can find and devellop your myth somewhere else. Some guitar collectors forum or news group.
I pesonally dont believe in it. Making good guitars is a metter of going to your workshop and do your best. Learn to listen. Learn to play trust your intuition (which goes stronger by every guitar you´ve finished) and be capable of deducing what to to to reach your goals.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 15:41:41

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

On a separate note ( and this probably deserves its own thread), there has not been any major innovations in guitar design.

You may have heard of the French classical guitarist Alexandre Lagoya. In the early 1960s he and his wife Ida Presti were interviewed by John W. Duarte for BMG magazine. They discussed the design of the guitar and pointed out of a lot of things that could stand improving: for instance, if you lay the guitar flat, put a coin on the lower bout and play a note, the coin vibrates; if you put it on the upper bout, it doesn’t, showing that the upper bout contributes little to the sound. They said they had a young luthier working on improving these things.

A couple of decades later I had a change to talk to M. Lagoya myself, and asked him what had become of these investigations. He replied that it had indeed been possible to produce a louder instrument, but that it didn’t sound like a guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 15:49:26

Morante

Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Tengo la mejor guitarra que he tocado nunca, mi Gerundino, la que compré de las manos del maestro, despues de no se cuantas copas de Don Simon. Pero, si se perderia de alguna forma, no buscaría otra de Gerundino a un precio ridiculo, compraría una nueva, probablemente de José Romero.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 15:54:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

I have come to realize of late, that wood changes daily. My guitars ALL change from one day to the next. The idea that THESE guitars are always good, vs some of these BAD guitars, is not fair. You need to spend time with an instrument to see how she behaves.

Along those lines, the old wood piles had certain kind of wood, maybe different then wood piles today. Even trees grow different nowadays then before. A "good" batch result in a "good" batch of guitars and a reputation gets made. Should be no surprise to find bad lemons of any maker. But again, in a certain environment and in certain hands, even a "bad lemon" may have her good days. So long as a guitars condition is decent (no bending of the neck or sinking of top, loose braces etc etc) I think every guitar deserves a good week of testing before it gets written off as a good or bad one.

The only reason I like old guitars is they have been through a lot of history and I think that is interesting. They often feel and smell different too. I will pay for that if I must because I am a "collector" at heart I think.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 16:43:19

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Come on guys,

If you believe that collectors are romantics, then it is you who are the romantics. A collector only cares to sustain or increase his/her wealth. The art recipe is old, effective and simple. You buy the VERY BEST and it increases in value. Not the second best, but the BEST. I started this thread out of simple academic curiosity. The myths are started by the younger generation of luthiers, not me. The most expensive condes are the re-editions. Lester, as was correctly mentioned, went from Santos to Torres who is the very beginning of guitar making history. Green has a whole manifesto about his Barbero influence. Navarro's most sought after, the Reyes. Kenny Hill's, the Reyes. Lester, at least, talks in his website about some refinements of his own and I quote: "Some of the refinements I have developed involve more accurate fret placement, string compensation, top arching, stress-free assembly and internal bracing design that make my guitars unique and consistent in sound and feel." This is the kind of info I was looking for, that perhaps the old luthiers had mastered and the new ones are left alone to rediscover. Ricardo, Andy and Ruphus were the only ones that offered constructive opinions (as usual) but I was hoping people would not just blame the contemporary woods. Santos might had very stiff spruce. Again as a naive guitar user, I wonder how hard it is to detect a "good" batch of wood. Can it be done a priori? Is it a particular forest, region, climate. Were the best trees cut last century or something?

Cheers
D.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 18:11:26

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

It seems that everything was better in the good old days. The bred tasted like a real bread and even the trees were growing in a natural forest from the natural soil

I havent been lucky enough to hear any great old instruments live, only from records and dvds. But theres definately difference in the modern sound and in the old sound. For me the modern guitars seem to have more accurat sound, more clear or something. If somebody wants the same sound than in the 50's and appreciates that ontop of all, then that must be the best sound.
I gues the modern luthiers make as top quality as the older ones, but they want their own sound, with their own preferences. I like the old sound but because I live now, Im moving toward to the sound of today, which many modern players have.
But because I havent hold a great old instrument in my hands and played it, I cant really compare them to the new ones. The ridiculous price doesnt tell anything about the guitars sound or playability.

quote:

The art recipe is old, effective and simple. You buy the VERY BEST and it increases in value. Not the second best, but the BEST.

Its very difficult to say whats best in art or to put a price tag to it. Well the top quality can be seen and heard but the best is a different thing. I think after top quality its just a marketing and thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 19:04:14

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

Before about 1947 there were no nylon strings – just gut. Many of the earlier guitars would not have survived the transition to nylon strings. Many were wrecked. Santos, Esteso and Manuel Ramirez were all long dead before the introduction of nylon strings.

Modern guitars have gradually changed since 1950 to meet the changing needs of players and the possibilities offered by new types of string. In the 50s and 60s the big touring companies were playing to sell-out audiences in big theatres with no amplification (which also meant no fold-back monitors). There were a few remarkable guitars around made by Barbero. When I was playing in the 60s and early 70s, we all wanted louder guitars. Arcangel Fernandez, Mariano and Faustino Conde, Gerundino, Reyes, and Jose Ramirez were among those who (in their own individual ways) were producing them. Some even used rosewood! Some other makers didn’t really move on.

I think that the best of the modern guitars are infinitely superior to the old guitars if you really want to play flamenco. They enable you to play in modern and older styles according to your preference. They last longer. In comparison with other consumer goods they are fantastic value for money. Having a lot of money doesn’t mean that you will be able to get the best guitar – unless you can play quite well you won’t be able to recognise a good guitar – I like that!

So why buy an old guitar? Well its not just about rich collectors. If you are interested in the history of flamenco, the older guitars (together with some early recordings) help you get some appreciation of what flamenco playing was like. I have some 1960s guitars that I play them for my own personal interest and pleasure . Of course if you are a plinky plonk amateur classical guitarist dabbling in a bit of flamenco, some of these older guitars will work well for playing a few falsetas out of time!

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 19:53:28

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

Ricardo, Andy and Ruphus were the only ones that offered constructive opinions (as usual)

I´m leaving this thread. I just dont believe in what you say and what you are looking for, so I have nothing to say that you would consider possitive and so you are not going to consider my opinion to be constructive.
But, please, dont expect members on a forum to reply the way you want them to do. Forums dont work this way. Especially not when talking about something that is our blood sweat and tears.

Just a last one, I have a lot of respect for the old masters and only time (a lot of time) will show if you are right that they knew something that we the contemporary builders dont know, because you cannot compare a new instrument with one which is 40 or 50 years old. The guitars that I build now, will sound and funcion in another way when I´m old or dead.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 21:00:16

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 22:10:41

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

Ricardo, Andy and Ruphus were the only ones that offered constructive opinions (as usual) but I was hoping people would not just blame the contemporary woods. Santos might had very stiff spruce. Again as a naive guitar user, I wonder how hard it is to detect a "good" batch of wood. Can it be done a priori? Is it a particular forest, region, climate. Were the best trees cut last century or something?

How long have you been reading this forum? This stuff has been discussed ad nauseum for years.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 22:33:07