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New vs Old
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elgreco
Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Hi Keith and Anders, Keith, in a recent thread about favorite 3 luthiers you listed Ramirez first and Green second. :) From contemporary guitarists only Andy listed another contemporary luthier as his favorite (himself) :) Stephen Faulk listed Gerundino, Bellido and Barba. Barberos, Reyes and old Condes seemed to be the winners in the thread (Green being an exception, and btw I am close of getting one myself). But I am glad that there are people out there that put my original assumption to the question. I honestly did not expect to defend it but I was hoping that there are no guitar making secrets lost in recent history never to be retrieved again. As I mentioned earlier, I believe that higher prices "IMPLY" higher demand, and higher demand by players (not collectors) has a direct correlation to higher quality and trust for the end product. I do not believe we can talk about a specific guitar but the trust that a particular maker enjoys that he is consistent in achieving that level of quality. I have played a few guitars myself but not enough to have a real opinion. Mainly because the old guitars (Santos & Ramirez) that I have played were not in a good condition or sounded too soft and sweet. But I have played anything from Alhambras (300$) to Bernabes (~$10K). The Bernabe (classical), and to a lesser extent a '93 Conde were by far the best. I have played many recent Condes that were simply terrible. I have also played many Carillos, but I find them really hard to play to bring out their quality. Same goes for Monrads (classical). Many of the old guitars seem to create a lot of volume and great lyric sound with very little effort. And by the way, those were the most expensive ones. Maybe the new ones were not broken into. But recenlty I went with a friend of mine that does not play music but his untrained ear could definitely appraise 4 guitars in the same order that they were priced (from 1750Euros to 5000Euros). So even though I agree that many times, economy is crazy, I do not buy that argument when it comes to guitars. D.
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Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other? Don Diego from San Fernando. Don Francisco from San Jose. Don Fernando from San Diego. Don Jose from San Bernardino. Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
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Date Jan. 11 2011 11:12:57
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)
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quote:
Andy listed another contemporary luthier as his favorite (himself) lol did I? Jeez... Just look at 1000 Youtube videos of current professional guitarists in Andalucia. It's going to be 50% Conde (living), 10% Reyes (living), 10% Sanchis (living), and the rest Barba, Dominguez, Pedro de Miguel (uh-oh, one died), Gonzalez, Manzanero, Maldonado, DeVoe etc. (all living). Maybe 3% will be older Ramirez and Gerundino. 1% will be Arcangel, Barbero, Santos, Contreras, Bernabe, etc. combined That's not just because guitars from dead makers are in short supply, it's because people really want to play new guitars by living makers. Desirable from a player's point of view is very different from desirable from a collector's point of view. There would be no point in collecting Sanchis Lopez guitars because everybody has them. You collect what's rare.
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Andy Culpepper, luthier http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Jan. 11 2011 12:19:08
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TANúñez
Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)
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quote:
A Reyes Jr guitar costs between 1000 and 2000 Euros when the Sr guitars cost more than 10K. Dino I don't know where you got this info but it's way off. A Reyes Hijo new is around 10,000 to 12,000 Euros. At least some that I have seen for sale. Used, around 8,000 to 10,000 Euros. He too has his own waiting list. I don't think old is necessarily better. A lot of "new" luthiers are producing instruments just as good. I think a lot of people (not all) want to own these historic guitars simply because of their historic value. Some for sentimental reasons. I admire the flamencos of Miguel Rodriguez Sr. I'm currently trying to get my hands on one to gather information for measurments in order to build something similar. I would love to own a late 50's or early 60's simply for sentimental reasons. His work inspires me. Other builders who build in the style of Santos would probably want to own a Santos because it's their source of inspiration. Then you have the collectors simply wanting them to put in display cases, or people wanting one just so they can say they own one. Many makers today build an instrument just as good. I copied a Santos a few years back that a former teacher of mine owned. Very light weight, responsive and punchy. However, it reminded me of a Shelton Farretta blanca that in my opinion, was better. It too has all those characteristics. The Santos was over 70 years old though so I don't know how close it's current sound compares to it's sound after construction. I think current makers use these plans by the legends because they simply work and there is no real need to change much. Devoe started off building in the style of Santos but now builds more in the style of Torres. Aaron Green I believe is inspired by Barbero. I think the maker takes on a style of the maker who inspires them and builds off of that and makes modifications to better suit their personal style. If you want different, check out some classical guitar builders. There you find some innovative concepts from double tops to lattice bracing to elevated fingerboards to Kasha bracing patterns. This list goes on and on. For Flamenco, I don't think much change is needed. That's just my opinion.
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Tom Núñez www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
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Date Jan. 11 2011 14:07:20
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elgreco
Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Come on guys, If you believe that collectors are romantics, then it is you who are the romantics. A collector only cares to sustain or increase his/her wealth. The art recipe is old, effective and simple. You buy the VERY BEST and it increases in value. Not the second best, but the BEST. I started this thread out of simple academic curiosity. The myths are started by the younger generation of luthiers, not me. The most expensive condes are the re-editions. Lester, as was correctly mentioned, went from Santos to Torres who is the very beginning of guitar making history. Green has a whole manifesto about his Barbero influence. Navarro's most sought after, the Reyes. Kenny Hill's, the Reyes. Lester, at least, talks in his website about some refinements of his own and I quote: "Some of the refinements I have developed involve more accurate fret placement, string compensation, top arching, stress-free assembly and internal bracing design that make my guitars unique and consistent in sound and feel." This is the kind of info I was looking for, that perhaps the old luthiers had mastered and the new ones are left alone to rediscover. Ricardo, Andy and Ruphus were the only ones that offered constructive opinions (as usual) but I was hoping people would not just blame the contemporary woods. Santos might had very stiff spruce. Again as a naive guitar user, I wonder how hard it is to detect a "good" batch of wood. Can it be done a priori? Is it a particular forest, region, climate. Were the best trees cut last century or something? Cheers D.
_____________________________
Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other? Don Diego from San Fernando. Don Francisco from San Jose. Don Fernando from San Diego. Don Jose from San Bernardino. Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
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Date Jan. 11 2011 18:11:26
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aleksi
Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland
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RE: New vs Old (in reply to elgreco)
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It seems that everything was better in the good old days. The bred tasted like a real bread and even the trees were growing in a natural forest from the natural soil I havent been lucky enough to hear any great old instruments live, only from records and dvds. But theres definately difference in the modern sound and in the old sound. For me the modern guitars seem to have more accurat sound, more clear or something. If somebody wants the same sound than in the 50's and appreciates that ontop of all, then that must be the best sound. I gues the modern luthiers make as top quality as the older ones, but they want their own sound, with their own preferences. I like the old sound but because I live now, Im moving toward to the sound of today, which many modern players have. But because I havent hold a great old instrument in my hands and played it, I cant really compare them to the new ones. The ridiculous price doesnt tell anything about the guitars sound or playability. quote:
The art recipe is old, effective and simple. You buy the VERY BEST and it increases in value. Not the second best, but the BEST. Its very difficult to say whats best in art or to put a price tag to it. Well the top quality can be seen and heard but the best is a different thing. I think after top quality its just a marketing and thing.
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Date Jan. 11 2011 19:04:14
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