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RE: The Bullfight
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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 RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
quote:
Well, at least sometimes, as here, the Bull upsets the odds and wins
I am surprised to read such a stupid commentary from an intelligent person. The Corrida de Toros is correctly translated as a running of the bulls. It is NOT a bullfight, which is a bad translation between cultures.
This is a ritual: the bull is intended to die.
I would regard anyone who takes pleasure from what happened to Juan Mora as a sub human species.
I feel privileged that I had, as a child, the opportunity to attend a Corrida, in Barcelona. I respect the spectacular folklore of this ancient tradition, as part of great culture. However, I remember how the clamor of the crowd was silenced by daunting moments of ritualistic violence which remain vivid and shocking in my memory.
I would never applaud as a man falls injured, but I cannot equally applaud the gratuitous violence inflicted on any living being, such as –in this instance- a bull.
My post was in reply to ToddK, adding to one of a few threads on the subject.
May I recommend you carefully read first -the thread and the Independent article- and then calmly place all words in context, before your judge.
The hasty conclusions you drew here are a dash too emotional and rushed, and may unjustly offend.
Saint Augustine, in his "City Of God" [where he argues against the Roman's position that Christians destroyed the honorable values of Rome] makes the example of Gladiators. After killing his opponent, the Gladiator removes his victim's mask, and realizes he is his own son. The father weeps, and so does the crowd. The author, rhetorically asks, how distant a kin does he need to be for you to stop weeping and begin cheering?
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gj Michelob
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Date May 22 2014 18:47:55
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
This is a ritual: the bull is intended to die.
Long before I had seen my first corrida I had read Ernest Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon," which, in my opinion, is still the finest narrative explanation and historical record of the meaning and great names associated with the "art" and "ritual" in Spain (at least up to the time it was published). I appreciate what the corrida means to the Spaniard, but one must recognize that although matadors must indeed be brave, there is much more to the ballet taking place than just the brave matador facing the bull.
Before the matador even faces the bull, the picador on horseback has greatly weakened the bull by lancing the neck muscles. And the Bandarillas have further weakened the bull by placing their smaller lances in his neck. In other words, the matador is not facing a bull with full strength. Now that's something that would really take courage. Instead, he faces a bull that has been deliberately weakened to give the matador a much greater edge. With this in mind, one can conclude that the matador may not be as brave as he appears to be.
Although it is a ritual, the corrida is as sadistic a piece of entertainment as were the gladiatorial contests in Rome, or bear baiting, or cock fighting and dog fighting are today. Any endeavor, whether it is considered "ritual" or not, that depends on taunting and tormenting animals and resulting in their death, cannot be considered civilized entertainment in today's more enlightened world.
The corrida was banned in Catalonia by a vote of the Catalan Parliament in July 2010. The ban came into effect on 1 January 2012. The last bullfight in the region took place in Barcelona in September 2011. The Catalans are ahead of their other Spanish compatriots in recognizing that the practice has no place in civilized society today.
I expect that the corrida will eventually die out (albeit over a long period of time) in the rest of Spain. Ironically, like the Spanish language as it was spoken in an earlier era, the corrida may continue to be found in Spain's New World ex-colonies such as Colombia, long after it has died out in Spain. Although my guess is it will die out in Mexico before Colombia, at some point in the distant future it probably will be banned everywhere.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 22 2014 19:37:20
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Estevan
Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía
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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
[GJ:] This Photograph, inspired the title of my post:
[Bill:] No amount of nattering on about "ritual" and "Cultural relativity" can pretty that one up.
Agreed, although to its proponents, this is "arte puro".
My feelings were well expressed by GJ:
"I would never applaud as a man falls injured, but I cannot equally applaud the gratuitous violence inflicted on any living being, such as –in this instance- a bull. "
Nevertheless, the effect of "cultural relativity" is such that, seeing the picture below, a scene in the Blackadder episode The Queen of Spain's Beard, involving "flamboyant clothes", inevitably came to mind.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (1)
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Me da igual. La música es música.
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Date May 22 2014 21:53:30
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Morante
Posts: 2181
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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“Flamenco without the bullfight, and the bullfight without flamenco, cannot be understood,” José Mercé told EFE, Spain’s national news agency, adding that the two disciplines are “las mayores culturas” [the major cultural expressions; or, possibly, the oldest cultural expressions] of the nation, with numerous points of encounter.
In the same vein, the torero Juan José Padilla assured the audience that one cannot understand a good bullfight without the “flamenco foundation” [fondo flamenco] that accompanies it, and stated that a siguiriya or a soleá sung by Mercé serves as an inspiration for a bullfighter.
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Date May 22 2014 23:39:41
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Estevan
Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía
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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
“Flamenco without the bullfight, and the bullfight without flamenco, cannot be understood,” José Mercé told EFE, Spain’s national news agency, adding that the two disciplines are “las mayores culturas” [the major cultural expressions; or, possibly, the oldest cultural expressions] of the nation, with numerous points of encounter.
In the same vein, the torero Juan José Padilla assured the audience that one cannot understand a good bullfight without the “flamenco foundation” [fondo flamenco] that accompanies it, and stated that a siguiriya or a soleá sung by Mercé serves as an inspiration for a bullfighter.
Yeah, we know that - it's the same stuff I posted recently in another related thread.
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Me da igual. La música es música.
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Date May 23 2014 1:12:43
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
“Flamenco without the bullfight, and the bullfight without flamenco, cannot be understood,” José Mercé told EFE, Spain’s national news agency, adding that the two disciplines are “las mayores culturas” [the major cultural expressions; or, possibly, the oldest cultural expressions] of the nation, with numerous points of encounter.
In the same vein, the torero Juan José Padilla assured the audience that one cannot understand a good bullfight without the “flamenco foundation” [fondo flamenco] that accompanies it, and stated that a siguiriya or a soleá sung by Mercé serves as an inspiration for a bullfighter.
Wether I agree or disagree, I enjoy a civil exchange. However, from my days before Judges and Magistrates, I know that when my opponent runs out of words and calls me "stupid" or "sub-human".... I won the argument.
I am glad to see that now you have chosen a more intellectual fashion to contradict my views, Morante. There is no "handshake" icon... but please imagine I posted one.
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gj Michelob
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Date May 23 2014 1:15:28
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