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RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE?
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DoctorX2k2
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
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 RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Rain)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rain
quote:
That is most definately a factor, at least in stamina if nothing else.
No its not. And Developing a fast picado has nothing to do with how young one started to develop there picado. If forearm muscles were a factor I would hit the Gym instead of the practice room.
If you cant count it, that is divide the beat verbally at a specific tempo you will not be able to play it is a fact. The same holds true for singing a musical phrase or developing a musical line wether one is performing a classical piece or learning a falsetta--if you cant sing it or hum it you probably cannot play it.
You can't say for a fact that it isn't.
Don't mix hypertrophy with strength and with power, although they are somehow related and sometimes needed for one another.
The thing is, even though playing guitar will help you optimize motor patterns (motor units recruiting scheme, activation/inhibition, etc.), I'm pretty sure the intensity isn't hit enough to stimulate enough motor units to produce the maximum possible power, or the velocity. If one cold activate more motor units at a given resistance, I guess his velocity would be greater.
When I saw Grisha's hand warm-ups, the first thing I noticed was his speed as he was doing it then I saw his forearm. I'd love to see how he does on a handgrip dynamometer. I'm sure his relative strength to muscle cross-section is huge. Do they correlate? Maybe... maybe not, but you can't say that they don't without testing it.
Let's take 20 volunteers. Develop a forearm power training program. Have half of them do it + picado exercises for a fixed amount of time. Let the other half just do the picado exercises and compare both groups progression after 10 weeks. 
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Date Jan. 7 2011 8:42:19
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.)
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I found Kris´ story very saddening to read. It must have broken his heart to wittness all that.
Also very informing and surprising to me to read what Orson wrote:
quote:
A 2003 study of professional flamenco guitarists in Andalucia found 87.5% showed signs of overuse syndrome. Amongst those affected 82.1% reported deterioration in their playing ability. (Marques et al 2003)
Those are some fuddling numbers, only underlining that it ought to be rather useful to discuss inherent aspects of technique as in this thread. Obviously, elaborating the practice is being no superfluous sissy engagement, but even more required than I used to think until Orson´s last post.
After all there must be a reason why so many players yet after long years perform in a strained / sluggish way. And at times even already relaxed players can detoriate in skills over time.
Along John´s kung fu example, which I want to confirm; it could be that even advanced practicioners need revisitting basics in a slow-motion and analytical way every other time. Kung fu students hardly ever come to see teachers and masters practicing, but when they possibly do they might well be surprised seeing the advanced guys doing basic stuff. Naturally in a much more minute and aware way, but technique the observers themselves thought `to be done with long since´.
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To explain quickly on my FD problem: Luckily it is much lighter than the one of Kris´father, yet disturbing enough. Faded in before already in a subtle way through wrong technique, it worsened considerably through constant use of an Aiptek tablets mouse with hypersensible buttons, during audio mixing sessions. The mouses right-cick button used to be so sensitiv that I was forced to lift / extend my m finger constantly. You might imagine what such can result in after roughly a year or more. ( Seems to me as if it physically effected cortex.)
I am now spending about four years at repairing this problem and a couple of habitual quirks. Very gradually, but progressively successfully nonetheless.
The reason why me intensively participated in this thread is that I want fellow players to become aware of inefficiency for one, and of latent threat to health and playing career on the other hand.
Now, seeing the numbers Orson quoted, we all might get the idea.
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As it seems after a lot of more or less blind resistence that we are now slowly accepting that a strained thumb can interfere into fingers movability ( and consequently influence / alter neural routines in general).
When rested, with the hands weight pulling downwards, the thumb will inherently have to resist its opening. How much the thumb will have to resist / contract depends on how much of hands weight it will have to anchor.
In order to omitt weight beforehand the lower arm should be rested in a certain way ( which will support other ergonomical aspects as well ). The how to do can be found in "my beloved" article of Prof. Iznaola, under a link above.
Keep in mind that thelike knowledge on motorics serve vast of common playing situation and are not inevitably meant to be maintained strictly throughout all possible playing requirements.
It rather seems that if settled on ergonomic basics one can if required afford occasional stray without primary harm. But without ergonomical basics one appears to be much more prone to further sneaking-in dysfunctionality as coming routine.
Execution, much rather than being bound to will ( = obsolete pedagogic premisse ) actually is vastly depending on imagination.
From there:
Minute knowledge / awareness can hardly ever distract or harm, but rather be priceless support to gain.
Ruphus
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 7 2011 15:54:04
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DoctorX2k2
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
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RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ruphus)
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Ruphus,
Nobody said that if you didn't train your speed while young you'd never be fast. You have to accept that you would have probably been even faster if you did. Speed remains trainable over a lifetime, it's just not as easy to do. There are many factors involved in speed, not just neural factors which are relatively set by the age of 16.
As for Grisha's arm... you misunderstand my point. He obviously doesn't have extraordinary girth, but he obviously can develop a greater power relatively to his muscle cross-section (Watts/cm^2) than most, if any, of us.
John O,
I have a friend who's a Kung Fu Master. We tested his power in a laboratory at the University. His relative strength (to his body weigth) and power were phenomenal compared to powerlifters and even olympic lifters. Obviously, if you asked him to do a Clean and Jerk, he wouldn't be technically able to lift similar weights. The guy weighted about 65kg (143 pounds). Be aware that hypertrophy (Arnold body type) doesn't result in maximal power or strength, even though it helps. You can be strong and have little power and vice-versa. Power is the ability to generate the highest possible force in the shortest time, while strength is just the highest absolute force one can develop, no matter the time. Bigger muscle cross-section (hypertrophy) does give you more strength and tend to hinder power because of the extra weight you have to move. Power training methods which stimulate the nervous system with little to no hypertrophy is what we should be aiming for. Should guitarists hit the gym are have Popeye like forearms? No. Should they try to maximize their power (neural schemes)? Yes. The fire-release cycle of fingers is similar to legs when sprinting.
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Date Jan. 7 2011 17:41:29
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