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RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
Ricardo, for me the little finger, while not irrelevant is a red herring and not the fundamental issue, have you read the article? You teach the guitar I think it could be helpful to you.
EDIT Thanks for your advise Ricardo. Do you distinguish between planting, a passive movement and preparation one that is requiring muscle work.
I read through but I can't see all the images in my mind. He needs to have both pictures and live video from various angles to get all what he is on about. For example, the arm resting on the guitar vs up in the air. Everyone seems to forget that in flamenco we push against the thumb for both free and rest stroke. much weight is distributed or taken care of or whatever there. Classical players don't rest the thumb as much. Very few times in flamenco we have all the weight just in the finger tip resting. It would be so brief when it happens anyway.
I see people all the time not doing rest strokes with thumb or planting the thumb some how, especially in arpegio. And they wonder why they are not loud or secure enough or natural switching techniques. The other thing, is the reason paco lifts the arm and rests thumb on the soundboard is so the angle of attack on the strings by the fingers is the same, so string crossings are not becoming as awkward or the wrist is not changing shape along the way up.
Notice grisha keeps arm on the guitar when moving to the basses. The result is his wrist changes angle depending on what strings he is on, so that the fingers can still hit the strings the same way. Not saying it is wrong, but a different technique totally. Way more significant I think then pinky position. But affecting speed or rhythm control??? Obviously not! LOL. I think tone is more affected by that then pinky (meaning his hand/wrist postion and angle of attack) but that is my opinion, more experimenting or examples needed.
About planting. Planting sets you up so for me it is preparation. Lifting the arm is a different kind of preparation of course, just as changing angle of the hand for alzapua. Not sure again what the guy means in the article without pictures, sound like just generalizations that mean nothing to me musically. For sure a good preparation of any technique will result in more speed and accuracy, control, etc over all aspects including tone. But which tone we are talking about is important.
I agree with all the stuff Scott tenant says, or rather, it all applies well to flamenco EXCEPT when he talks about or achieves a certain tone (wrist angle affects angle of finger attack affects tone for example). We are going for a totally different sound with flamenco. But his other ideas about nail shape, planting, staccato, left hand pressure, etc.. all apply.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Factors that determine how fast you are gonna beable to go with picado, comfortably and with right sound and stamina:
1. rhythm. How fast you perceive and feel rhythm in music. If you can't articulate the sound with your mouth and brain, you fingers are not going to be in control of it either. So that speed barrier number one.
2. How old you were when you started. We are all limited by what age we started developing speed I feel. If you dont' get that extra few notches when you are young, no amount of technique practice or understanding even of fast rhythm will allow you to break the barrier. I dont' know what age helps with that but my guess is in the early teens. Much like learning to speak there is a window of opportunity and if you dont' get it at that age, its is never so "natural".
3. Planting right hand fingers. The best way to learn this is to do like in Pumping nylon, develop your control by playing stacato. It not only helps your control of prep and ultimately speed and rhythm control, but also your tone. Based on 1,2 and 3 here you will maximize your possible speed not matter what your pinky or hand positions are or nail shape.
I am all in for the 1 and 3 reasons.
But I am afraid (or better should i say happy) that number 2 is wrong.
I have many-many-many examples and even myself that you can develop greatly any given technique at any given age (ok before 80 or something that is).
What is true about your statement is that a teenager or someone that has A LOT of time to spare, can neglect all other important issues of his life and dedicate his time to doing something so repetitive as picado, ALL DAY LONG. The reason why a mature person (in age and/or taste doesn;t get a lot better at a technique is..................that he doesn;t give the proper time....because he considers other things more important like.....spending time with his children, doing his tax payment, or even nailing that nice sounding Jerez buleria falseta.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
Orson sorry I meant the shape of his hand, what you wrote to that was exactly my point, so we're on the same page.
Ricardo, I see what you mean. The technique is the same, but depending on the circumstances he has to change the shape and angle of his hand a bit. He does have his fingers straighter for the alegrias run. Pulling the arm back will automatically make your fingers straighten as they continue the run.
Splitting hairs for this discussion, really. I was only making the point that you have to try a certain technique for different situations and it won't always work the same without adjusting. Didn't really fit into the discussion, I guess.
1:25 Paco at lightening speed, hand flat and pinkey out
At 1:54 they show his wrist at that tricky angle again, still I'd say the angle of his fingers at that speed is different. Here he keeps his thumb on the A string so he can't hold his hand as flat as it's too big, thus less angle in the fingers to even it out, and he has to straighten the fingers more to get to the strings below.
2:47 at that same tricky angle (like they're doing it on purpose LOL), does look different - I'd say there's more angle in the fingers for a smaller movement to play more notes per beat at 1:25. I always thought the faster it goes with Pacos picado the more the fingers brush over the strings instead of pushing into the strings.
At 1:15 you can see Ricardo Medrego doing it the other way with pinkey in, but relatively slow. Pacos pinkey is in every video almost always straight down and there's more tension the faster it gets. I always thought it was just the physical fact that the quicker the fingers go over the strings the more strength you need to keep the movement small and loud at that angle, I thought there was no other way.
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Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to stratos13)
quote:
I have many-many-many examples and even myself that you can develop greatly any given technique at any given age (ok before 80 or something that is).
What is true about your statement is that a teenager or someone that has A LOT of time to spare, can neglect all other important issues of his life and dedicate his time to doing something so repetitive as picado, ALL DAY LONG. The reason why a mature person (in age and/or taste doesn;t get a lot better at a technique is..................that he doesn;t give the proper time....because he considers other things more important like.....spending time with his children, doing his tax payment, or even nailing that nice sounding Jerez buleria falseta.
just my opinion though
I would like that it is not true and there perhaps are great examples out there, but my experience tells otherwise. I wish there as a "secret to speed" other then those 3 factors being important. I would propose that an adult player who has plenty or exact same time on his hands as a teen or child, will NOT achieve the same speed he COULD HAVE as if he started as a kid. How to prove it is not easy without perhaps a time machine or twins experiment or something.
I can only offer that myself and others I have seen that started flamenco at a later age then guitar in general, can't get the same speed as when we were young, regardless of time spent or available. For me it reveals itself personally in the discrepancy between right and left hands technique speeds. The right hand techniques i developed as a young teen, parallel my left hand abilities. The new techniques I learned as an adult with the right hand, are not in the same league. It is quite clear to me that age matters regardless if you do it "right" or not, and I have noticed the same in others.
I am waiting for ToddK to prove me wrong, I hope he does actually cuz then I have hope too!!! He switched to a new technique recently and knowing what his speed capablities should be or could be, I am sure his goal is the same as mine was when I started flamenco. To simply match the same speed abilities of control and rhythm, he already has with the other technique (given time and proper practice of course). I propose that it is not possible because he is older, yet of course he can come close as I have. But it is simply funny to me to see how there is an invisible obstacle there, and I can see clearly with a metronome the difference with myself. If he can do it I will be surprised, and accept his advices on achieving what he has as fact and follow them myself, admit I have been doing something wrong, and then of course trash my number 2 speed limit rule.
Scott tenant said matter of factly that we all have our limits, and I agree, and further think this age thing is part of it. He said "we all can't be as fast as paco de lucia!"
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to John O.)
quote:
He does have his fingers straighter for the alegrias run. Pulling the arm back will automatically make your fingers straighten as they continue the run.
Well I again I say no, he is doing the same thing each time. You keep showing vids at differing camera angles thinking he is changing his finger attack angle. He is NOT. In some cases his pinky is not sticking out SO MUCH but it is still more or less doing the same thing. And again I say, not so important. Modrego has a lot of shadow going on, but essentially the same type of attack as paco, a little less bend at the middle joint.
I am telling you you need to see the same exact music passage from differing angles, that helps.
Front at :22:
Side at 2:28:
and front AND side again at 4:33
Each angle looks different. What ever seems THE SAME is what is truly important here.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Scott tenant said matter of factly that we all have our limits, and I agree, and further think this age thing is part of it. He said "we all can't be as fast as paco de lucia!"
Ricardo in your experience as a player and teacher what do you think is a reasonable speed to aim for. If you consider that someone is practicing daily for 2-3 hours. Am I really dreaming to think of increasing from 110bpm to 160bpm ? I don't expect to be like a Caño Roto player or Paco de Lucia but if I could play commanding 16th notes in tangos and in alegrias, triplets in fast alegrias I'd be satisfied.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
quote:
Scott tenant said matter of factly that we all have our limits, and I agree, and further think this age thing is part of it. He said "we all can't be as fast as paco de lucia!"
Ricardo in your experience as a player and teacher what do you think is a reasonable speed to aim for. If you consider that someone is practicing daily for 2-3 hours. Am I really dreaming to think of increasing from 110bpm to 160bpm ? I don't expect to be like a Caño Roto player or Paco de Lucia but if I could play commanding 16th notes in tangos and maybe triplets in alegrias I'd be satisfied.
I need to know more info about you first before saying, then I need to know what it IS exactly you are trying to play at those tempos. Start off by looking at my 1,2,3 as questions. Do you have exceptional rhythm? Can you say the rhythms verbally that you want to play with picado? Look at 4:00 here. Paco "says" the rhythm "takataka taka" and even accents while doing palmas. Can you do that and how fast? That is a clue to your limits first of all:
Next, how old were you when you started learning picado? And finally I need to see and hear how you are planting your fingers when you alternate rest strokes.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
Thanks for the reply Ricardo. Well, I'd guessed that these things can't be easily assessed over the internet. I need to buy a webcam and book a skype lesson with you.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Doitsujin)
Ok, I just did a small clip of the intro to "Mediterreanean Sundance with a decent camera angle to watch the right hand. It's not perfect but here it is.(I just put new strings on the basses so it's badly out of tune). Sorry. :)
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to jg7238)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jg7238
Ruphus, the only way you are going to play well, have nice picado technique, etc... is by permitting your hand to go completely relaxed. Just let the right hand fall into place, attack the strings with the fingertips, but with your fingers totally relaxed,
That is quite what is behind my plea for knowledge of ergonomics. I hope you didn´t think ergonomical playing had to do with tensening engagement, as it actually works the opposite way.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jg7238
... the hand, wrist, shoulder, elbow and the whole body. If you don't feel relaxed, you will never achieve good technique. T
You are saying something there.
The guitar ( after Torres ) to me appears like a supernatural gift to men. So simple, yet musically amost almighty that it is. Despite its shape that looks as if it was primarily designed for esthetics and symmetry, this instrument on top of all its beauty in sound and appearance can even be surprisingly smooth to the human body, optimal / near to optimal playing posture and technique provided.
Yet, it seems to come with one nasty little birthmark. ...
You relax the shoulder? Please let me know how you do that. I´d love to learn about it.
From what I can see so far, unfortunately that´s exactly what you can´t do. Not when sitting while playing, and lesser yet when playing upright standing ( which I consider the optimal position, even for classical players ).
For, relaxing the shoulder will be releasing the arms weight. Such will then effect the lower arms rest on the lower bout of the guitar and consequently lever the hand away from the top, as your ellbow is going downwards.
One can, it seems, find the optimum between least pull-up of the shoulder and least leverage of lower arm in the same time; but hardly an actually relaxed shoulder.
... But if you can show me otherwise, I´d be the first to embrace the news.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to jg7238)
quote:
Ruphus, the only way you are going to play well, have nice picado technique, etc... is by permitting your hand to go completely relaxed. Just let the right hand fall into place, attack the strings with the fingertips, but with your fingers totally relaxed, the hand, wrist, shoulder, elbow and the whole body. If you don't feel relaxed, you will never achieve good technique. T
I could not agree more. Total relaxation is the key to all technique. In fact, it would be hard to find a better example of that than JG's own playing. Watch some of his videos, and you will see fluent, seemingly effortless playing. This kind of technique only comes from complete relaxation.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
PS:
What the age thing is concerned; I am all with what Mr. Iznaola says in a dedicated article that can be found as well on the posted link above. ( Giving lots of hope.)
Without thinking it to be a generally valuable attitiude, I for myself am not imagening to become as capable as I might had become if tutored as a youngster. Me didn´t start out with goals, merely feasting of the enchanting sonics of the instrument. Yet after years, starting out to explicitely explore technically / try progressing. And today being already hyped through what emerges with the resetting of the limbs, finally getting rid of contra productive habitual detours step by step.
Everything that might yet add, will be a cheerful present on top.
Sure would it be great to be excellent in playing, yet there is a lot of pleasure already with the humble conquest in place, largely because of the brilliance of the instrument itself. I seem to be a guitar connoisseur first of all.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic
I could not agree more. Total relaxation is the key to all technique. In fact, it would be hard to find a better example of that than JG's own playing. Watch some of his videos, and you will see fluent, seemingly effortless playing. This kind of technique only comes from complete relaxation.
Ramon
Fine; though it could be of sense if you actually read first what he thinks to be replying to. And eventually discover that his reply only parallels / confirms my request instead of contradicting it as intended.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to jg7238)
quote:
Ok, I just did a small clip of the intro to "Mediterreanean Sundance with a decent camera angle to watch the right hand. It's not perfect but here it is.
Nice relaxed technique sound and speed, but the compas of that picado part needs some work.
quote:
You relax the shoulder? Please let me know how you do that. I´d love to learn about it.
Not 100% but a huge load is released, standing or sitting, when you use your thumb to rest. It really helps arpegio too. I feel weight of the arm on my thumb when I play. It feels good actually and seems to make playing louder as well.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to jg7238)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jg7238
Ricardo, I know what you exactly are talking about. It's the section from 0:21 to 0:28. That's what you are referring to. No?
well, from :28 to the end is the really tricky part everyone rushes the in between notes and doesn't give the groove of rumba that has to happen there. Do you practice this to the metronome? It makes it really obvious, or with rhythm guitar backing. I think the reason is the original with dimeola has no backing and the timing is a bit synchopated and fast, but there is a groove there none the less.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
I was aware that I slightly rushed the in between notes. I played the Rumba strumming along with the video and it could be better for sure but not dreadful. I'll try playing with metronome on this one.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to jg7238)
Thanks for posting JG. I always find your right hand an inspiration.
I don't know if I'll ever get quite as relaxed as you, it's probably not in my nature.
I like to play a little more aggressively but my hand still needs to be way more relaxed than it is, in-between the strikes. This is what we were discussing earlier in the thread how to achieve good 'poise'; there is a relaxed feeling but ready to strike, powerful strike and then back to relaxed 'poise' all in fractions of a second.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo is right on. There most certainly is a developmental window with human beings, and its when we're very young that we take in information, and learn physical tasks in a way that we can do no longer when we get into our 20's and up. It goes for speech, balance, rhythm, etc etc... you name it. Its not a pleasant fact. You can try to fight it all you want. But its still a fact.
Probably the best approach if you're really having trouble, is to just really get into the music, the rhythm. At the end of the day, its about having as much fun as you can. Not about impressing everybody with machine gun picado's
Dont get sucked into that "I MUST PLAY FASTER, AND I MUST DO IT IMMEDIATELY" metality, and try to just sound really really good.
Do your best on the picado stuff, but dont beat yourself up over it, and dont let it rob you of so much thought and time. Music is more important.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to jg7238)
quote:
Ok, Ricardo, I think this one is a bit better than the previous one. Here it is.
That is better. It could still groove a little tighter. One thing that helps me to keep from rushing it is the speed burst on the B string, the first note there has to land square on the down beat, so feel that spot and accent.
foot....takatakta......TAHkatakata.....takaTAHkata.....ta...ta....TAH(notice the long space here!)ta(foot) ....takatakata....TAHkatakata....takaTAHkata.....etc.....
When I hear people play this it is usually that second speed burst coming in a hair early that really jolts me cuz my internal clock wants the beat and tempo to be felt strong there. Then the next strong beat comes in the middle of the 3rd speed burst and again, I lose people without that note locked in. It just hurts my clock. Then the most early of all and everyone does the same mistake, is the last "ta"right before the foot tap the first line. Most don't get that dotted rhythm before and come in too early and propel the thing out of groove. Grrrrrrr cuz that is what locks into the rumba accent.
If you tap your foot to those capital letter "TAH"s, that will really help feel the groove.
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
You relax the shoulder? Please let me know how you do that. I´d love to learn about it.
Not 100% but a huge load is released, standing or sitting, when you use your thumb to rest. It really helps arpegio too. I feel weight of the arm on my thumb when I play. It feels good actually and seems to make playing louder as well.
Ricardo
Assumed if it was only say ~ 70% of the arms weight that you released, how much would that be? Something between 5 and 15 kg? Then considered that the thumb, despite its bulky appearance is being the weakest limb of the hand: It could barely withstand such a weight, and if it might, merely for a couple of seconds. ( Aside of that there would be not enough hold / friction at the guitars top to lock the thumb at, while again the strings as suspension to be bended near breaking.) Next there is the blocking condition which I mentioned earlier, that occures to the fingers when a thumb is being extended, let alone in order to avoid overly extension, contracted at a wide angle on top of that. An impossible playing condition. - Be assured that your shoulder is pulling up the vast of weight, at the latest with the posture you indicate. Which conseqquently ought to be as follows: If you were to take a position that could include arms dispension through the thumb, it inherently would be meaning to be lifting the ellbow off from the guitars bout to bypass lower arm leverage.
Such together with how you claim that a well written and congruent discription like Iznaola´s wasn´t to be understood and that you couldn´t retrace it by just reproducing described physiological circumstances ...
Why do I have the impression that you are not really being open to exploring new shores, Ricardo?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Picado attack, do you really nee... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
Next there is the blocking condition which I mentioned earlier, that occures to the fingers when a thumb is being extended, let alone in order to avoid overly extension, contracted at a wide angle on top of that. An impossible playing condition. - Be assured that your shoulder is pulling up the vast of weight, at the latest with the posture you indicate. Which conseqquently ought to be as follows: If you were to take a position that could include arms dispension through the thumb, it inherently would be meaning to be lifting the ellbow off from the guitars bout to bypass lower arm leverage.
I did not mean it to be trying to suspend the arm in mid air as dead weight! Simply put, the thumb stabalizes the hand compared to if my arm was "floating" like a record player arm, as I have seen many players think of it. The other point of contact IS the wrist or forearm which feels no "weight" per say but feels like and other stabalizer. And of course there are times the arm is on the side of the guitar resting, but ignore that for now, lets say it is up in the air. Of course most of the arm is being pulled at the shoulder especially when you lift to move from trebels to bass. But the thumb stabalizer really makes for a relaxing feeling in the arm, elbow, and shoulder that disappears once it (thumb) is up in the air (NOT resting on string or soundboard). This stability translates to relaxed feeling for me where as no thumb equals more stiffness in the whole arm (and even up to the neck if done a lot) to hold my postion on the strings. It feels like a "weight" is removed from the equation and makes me feel much more relaxed physically overall.
Hope that makes more clear what I mean.
quote:
Why do I have the impression that you are not really being open to exploring new shores, Ricardo?
It is not that. I need to SEE things done or have things translated to actual music. I am one who is more into not doing exercise for technique UNLESS it is musical. I think all things can be worked through music as it is more fun and inspiring as well. So a practical musical thing like resting thumb fixes A LOT of technique problems.
Another example of what I mean or the way I am. Lot of guitarists complain of back pain. No suprise most of them have their nose burried in the neck of the guitar when practicing. Rather then discuss connective tissues, muscles and tendons etc, I simply offer practicing in front of the mirror as you are force to raise your head up.
Printable Version
He switched to a new technique recently and knowing what his speed capablities should be or could be, I am sure his goal is the same as mine was when I started flamenco. To simply match the same speed abilities of control and rhythm, he already has with the other technique (given time and proper practice of course). I propose that it is not possible because he is older, yet of course he can come close as I have. But it is simply funny to me to see how there is an invisible obstacle there, and I can see clearly with a metronome the difference with myself. If he can do it I will be surprised, and accept his advices on achieving what he has as fact and follow them myself, admit I have been doing something wrong, and then of course trash my number 2 speed limit rule. 
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