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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar
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rombsix
Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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 RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
The 650/50 also called factory standard or classical standard
I think you meant 640/50, and NOT 650/50, right? Or were you referring to a guitar with a standard scale length (650), but a narrow nut (of 50 instead of 52)?
quote:
You should be able to get almost 170 degrees between the thumb and the pinky
I just put my hand flat on a paper, and projected the MAXIMAL (with straining) angle between my thumb and pinky, and it turned out about 130 (one-hundred-and-thirty) degrees. There is NO WAY I think I can ever get that angle to reach 170 degrees as you mentioned. Can you post a picture of your hand opening up to 170 degrees? That is IMPOSSIBLE for me to do now, unless I use the fingers of my right hand to forcefully and actively OPEN UP the thumb of my left hand to get such a 170-degree angle. In general, I am not a very flexible person (I mean, I can't bend down and touch my toes with my knees straight, and I've been too busy to follow-up on that yoga I was trying a while back). 
Gracias El Fandangero! 
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Dec. 12 2010 8:28:56
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
Your hands are not small, but they are not very strong and you should teach them how to strech some more.
Ramzi, I watched your vid, you don't seem to be doing too badly, I think nearly everyone has struggles with stretches to overcome, so keep on with it, you look like you are getting there.
Actually one think I think really helps is to play stuff (like the example in the vid) with a high capo on 3 or 4 and when you are really relaxed and comfortable with it, just take it down a fret and hang out there for a while before taking it down another fret etc.
Another one is do you practise or mess around with scales? I think the 3 note per fret "stretch" scales are really useful for developing stretches. Again if they are a problem work on them with a capo and progressively lower the capo fret. And not just the major scale modes, the harmonic minor modes use slightly different stretches, between fingers 1 and 3 as well as between fingers 1 and 2 and/or 3 and 4.
Finally, beware trying to build "strength". The actual muscular strength required to push down guitar strings is so minimal, almost noone needs to "build strength". Be sure to only use the minimal muscle effort required, and focus on developing co-ordination with the (surely adequate) strength you already have.
When you want to stretch you have to use muscular contraction to power the movement (abductors located in the hand), but other muscles need to be relaxed (such as the adductors in the hand), and one common fault is to over-contract the flexors, which need only work a little to bring the finger to the string.
In other words, contracting the wrong muscles can actually limit the stretch!
There is also some stuff on stretches in the 3rd Oscar Herrero Paso A Paso vid, but I have been told not to try to develop a stretch between fingers 2 and 3 (which he advocates), and I think there is good anatomical reason for this (it is not actually possible, so don't try to force it!), but you can adapt the exercises and material to avoid this.
Lastly, it's not really possible to be totally sure from just watching a vid, but it looks a little like you might be over-tensing your 4th finger when making stretchs, so don't try to force the stretches, try to let your hand relax and open out.
bit of a long post, but hope it helps.
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Date Dec. 12 2010 20:18:22
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rombsix
Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to gbv1158)
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Mark and gbv: I really appreciate your posts. Thanks!
My input is as follows: I've been playing guitar (classical, flamenco, and other fiddly bits) for NINE (9) years now. I think by now, I should have DEVELOPED enough stretch / strength to allow me to play nearly ANYTHING I should want to play (let alone a "silly" F add9 chord). Is that a correct assumption on my part, or do you think I've been going through these past nine years doing something wrong, or avoiding to properly exercise my left hand correctly to develop actual FULL strength / stretch?
If after nine years it is possible to have been "doing it wrong all this time" regarding the issue of flexibility / strength in the left hand, then granted, I'll need to work on that. If you think that it is HARD to have been messing that up all this time (considering that simply having been PLAYING for nine years should have built up enough flexibility / strength to no longer have problems like the ones I have shown in the above video), then it is likely that for some reason (small hands, synovial cyst in my left wrist, screwed up rigged classical guitars, etc.) I really just CANNOT play these chords / positions clean?
What's your take on the matter?
Gracias!
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Dec. 12 2010 20:54:40
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to rombsix)
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If you have been playing for nine years, and you can play what I see you playing, then I don't think there is anything to be gained by trying to increase either your strength or your reach. But there could easily be something to be lost, in terms of time, effort, and even possible injury. You would know that better than most.
Everyone is individual, and players with the same size hands have different abilities. If at this point you are getting that buzz I hear on the first string F while barring the first fret and reaching, then I would reiterate my first thoughts – I feel that a total combination of shorter scale (640) - narrower nut (50) - and especially low tension strings, will make playing a lot easier and more pleasurable for you.
If you were planning to play professionally, where you might want more projection, etc., it might be different - you might want a larger scale and high tension strings. But you're not, so why should you have to struggle. Especially if you plan to buy a luthier guitar, where you can get exactly what you want and need.
Hanika makes full size guitars with all options – scale, nut, even radiussed fingerboard. If by chance you have access to a store or dealer that sells these, you might be able to try some out, and see what you feel most comfortable with, then have the luthier of your choice build it that way for you. At the least you have to try out a 640 flamenco guitar if you can, and on that guitar test everything that gives you trouble, to see if it makes a difference.
_____________________________
Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Dec. 12 2010 22:03:01
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rombsix
Posts: 7805
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I feel you are just not making the effort big guy.
When I watch your vid your elbow is way back near your hip. It should be more forward so you play more on top of the fingerboard and your wrist more parallel to the neck.
Thank you for your comment, Ricardo.
The reason why I keep my elbow far back near my hip is because it helps keep my wrist in continuity with my forearm (i.e. parallel to the FLOOR, and NOT parallel to the neck/fretboard). This is because I CANNOT angle my wrist the way you do at 2:45 of your video, or else, I will end up with BAD pain and stiffness in my wrist which will prevent me from playing for a couple of days. This is mainly because of the synovial cyst that I have on my left wrist. Before I developed this problem with the cyst, I used to do what you mentioned when I found certain positions that required more stretching. I'm afraid doing this for sometime had a role in making me develop that cyst in my left wrist. There are no studies that show a direct relationship between mechanical overuse of joints, and the development of such cysts, but there are trends that show a relationship.
If you remember, at one point, I started playing in the traditional position with the neck way up in the air (like Paco Pena), but that didn't feel very comfortable in terms of the guitar being unstable and prone to fall (requiring me to hold it up with my left hand, and thus have less freedom to move up and down the neck). However, this allowed me to keep my wrist IN CONTINUITY with my forearm, thus allowing me to avoid forming an angle thereby avoiding the pain due to the cyst. I then started using a strap to keep the guitar from wanting to fall, and to free my left hand up a bit. That was more comfortable, but NOT as comfortable as playing cross-legged, like PdL. I therefore returned to playing in the PdL position (despite all the back pain it causes me, which I then started remedying by going to the gym and working out my lower back and abs, and by doing "yoga" stretches at home), but settled for an elbow far back near the hip to keep my wrist from angling and exacerbating the cyst pain.
So you see, if I play the way you want me to, I get wrist pain. If I play like Paco Pena, I get no pain, but I don't feel comfortable playing freely over the whole neck. If I play like PdL (cross-legged), I get back pain and I have to move my elbow back near my hip (for better wrist-forearm alignment - the whole cyst issue), therefore disallowing me to get those stretchy chords / positions.
That is why I was thinking to myself: maybe a 640 scale length guitar with a narrower nut will solve the problem once and for all - but then, I started getting people telling me that such guitar dimensions would make other positions (especially with a capo) too crowded, and thus uncomfortable to play.
THAT is why I am confused about the matter, and I can't seem to make up my mind regarding what guitar dimensions to settle on. Maybe the BEST solution would be to finally gather the courage to get surgery done on my left wrist to remove that cyst, and hope that my pain / range of motion would go back to pre-cyst days. However, there are always risks with surgery, and there's about a 5 to 10% chance that the cyst will RECUR after surgery.
So, what should I do? 
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Dec. 12 2010 22:14:12
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Mohan
Posts: 42
Joined: Mar. 23 2010
From: Dunstable, England
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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to rombsix)
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Hi Rombsix,
You could try guitar support as Andy suggested and you could also try using a footstool under the RIGHT foot so that you can rest the guitar on the right leg, a la PdL, but without crossing your legs. Of course, there is always the traditional classical footstool under the left foot-guitar at an angle approach...
It may not look cool, but the healthiest is to use a guitar support with the guitar at an angle across your body, both feet flat on the floor and a nice straight back. This allows you to keep your weight distributed evenly on both sides of your body, your wrist straight, access all parts of the fretboard, and gives you the best leverage for (i.e. clean sounding) barre chords. Just like the traditional flamenco position, but more stable. But, as I say it doesn't look cool, and that's enough to stop most flamenco guitar players from using guitar supports.
I have used all of the above methods, but mainly stick with either both feet flat on the floor and guitar on the right thigh - the most restrictive way of playing, especially barre chords - or footstool under the right foot. I also practice playing holding the guitar in the traditional flamenco way, which gives the best access and comfort, but my main problem is that the stool I sit on is too high - for this position to work well, you have to sit such that the knee is slightly higher than the hip joint so that you can clamp the guitar securely between thigh and arm.
Hope this helps and good luck with your decision. Mohan.
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Date Dec. 12 2010 22:56:30
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: 640 mm scale length guitar (in reply to Mohan)
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quote:
It may not look cool
i use this "gitano" guitar support. it is virtually invisible, hardly anyone ever notices it. so not that "uncool"
also it depends where you place the suction cups under the guitar, further back you get the guitar in "trad" position, further forward (as i use it) you get the guitar in relation to your body same as "PDL" position.
I wish i had a picture, in dance class one night, three of us playing, me in the middle. all three heads, bodies and guitars look the same, but the two either side had legs crossed, and me with both feet on ground.
Even in Spain the last two times either noone notices it, or (last year) the dance teacher asks and the class guitarist i'm sitting in with tells her it is a good thing, much better for your back, or (this year) the guitarist is interested in it and tries it out and thinks it's good.
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Date Dec. 13 2010 16:52:25
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