RE: Blackshear/Reyes style

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

But on the Damman, Blackshear, Eliasson, whoever I totally agree, there is probably no real difference except for subtle nuances and cosmetics.

What would you say about the difference on cost between a Rembrandt and a Picasso? Both are respected by their peers and followers who pay great sums of money to own them.

But it's obvious that the former brings more money. Why should there be any difference there?

Don't you think subtle nuances are what makes the value of each instrument?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 1:17:50

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The skills of Rembrandt to those of Picasso differ like day and night.

Hopefully that sentence can be unerstood.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 9:08:46

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

The skills of Rembrandt to those of Picasso differ like day and night.

Hopefully that sentence can be unerstood.

Ruphus

Well, the point I was trying to make came from the pen and brush of respected artists in that idiom :-)

I heard that Picasso wrote checks for his food but that many cafe owners would not cash them due to Picasso's signature being worth more than the check.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 13:11:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I heard that Picasso wrote checks for his food but that many cafe owners would not cash them due to Picasso's signature being worth more than the check.

LOL!

On a more humble note...

I've got a cheque for about a tenner given to me by by the Marquis of Huntly, (Head of the Gordon Clan).

I just kept it as a souvenir.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2010 13:36:12

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2010 19:36:39

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2010 2:29:26

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

oh yes, Picasso and guitars........both are forms of currency.

Wow, given that, I wonder how much that guitar of Manitas de Plata that Picasso drew a picture on is worth?

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2010 3:56:33

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

I had the opportunity to briefly play and listen to a Conde (repaired) and I listened objectively to it and two Sigurdson blancas along with another foroflamenco member Gemelo. I could not distinguish which was the Conde. The difference is very subtle imho, and may be due to the strings installed. If it is that subtle, then the difference is not worth piles of moolah imho.

There will also be an opportunity soon to listen to two matched pair Sigurdsons, one a blanca and one a negra.

I will also throw in a Raimundo Flamenco for comparison.

To "listen objectively" is quite hard! For me, "how they sound" isn't the most important thing about flamenco guitars. The best guitars I have owned have had ther own distinctive sounds sometimes quite different from one another. In my view "how they feel" is far more important - call it "pulsación" if you will. This governs whether it is possible to play flamenco on them.

As to price - high prices and famous names are no guarantee of a good guitar or even a good wine. However, if the maker is famous enough you could always sell a bad guitar to another mug.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2010 13:09:31

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

As to price - high prices and famous names are no guarantee of a good guitar or even a good wine. However, if the maker is famous enough you could always sell such a guitar to another mug.

The ideal is to get a good guitar from a recognized maker and hold on to it for the duration and then sell it in good condition for a price higher than you paid for it :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2010 13:18:21

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Yes good idea Tom. Sadly, the best guitars I have had have begun to look pretty shabby over the years - that's the trouble with actually playing them!

Just to be clear, I believe that a great guitar is worth as much as the maker can get for it. After many years of toiling away and building up a reputation there should be some kind of bonus for an experienced luthier.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2010 13:46:39

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

Yes good idea Tom. Sadly, the best guitars I have had have begun to look pretty shabby over the years - that's the trouble with actually playing them!

Just to be clear, I believe that a great guitar is worth as much as the maker can get for it. After many years of toiling away and building up a reputation there should be some kind of bonus for an experienced luthier.

Rob

I think there will always be different price lines for guitars, as it will be compared to those players who are in different levels of the economy.

Everyone is looking for a guitar that will be above what they can pay, and then hoping that somehow there was a mistake in its higher price.

But the guitar is kind of like a Lady. A person doesn't bring her down to the level of their competence, they rise to the level of her qualities.

This is very true when purchasing a guitar, players can't imply that a high quality instrument is nearly worthless just to fit their level of economy.

This makes the player seem ignorant and baseless in his assumption that things are supposed to comply with his limited thinking.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2010 14:04:41

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Haven't most of you accused Conde Hermanos in other threads about being overpriced? :) (It was about time there was a Conde reference to this thread) So hopefully, I won't hear any anti-Conde propaganda ever again. :)

Dinos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 5:58:05

Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

So hopefully, I won't hear any anti-Conde propaganda ever again.

Dont be naive. This is foroflamenco. There´ll alaways be a lot of babbling about Condes, prices etc. So in order to continue where you started:
Conde is a factory guitar made while Tom´s guitar is a true artesan made guitar. Shouldnt there be a price difference

I´m sorry. I couldnt help it. I had to write this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 8:20:00

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders,

I totally agree. I was only teasing myself. However here are some of my thoughts:
1. I have immense respect for you guys. In a world where MBAs have made better profit margins the only reason for existence of a company by lowering standards and promoting mass production, guys like you and Tom are striving for quality. I would not only pay 10K but 100K if I could afford it for one of your guitars. If I had to choose between a ferrari and a luthier guitar for 100K, yeah I would choose the guitar no questions asked.
2. Luthiers that are charging 10K/guitar and make 20 guitars a year will never become millionaires. It is simple math.
3. However, I do have a problem with middle men. I live in California where it is impossible to buy a home. The main reason is that investors buy all new real-estate out there, so they can turn it over and make a buck. I know that I would probably do the same if I had capital that I would want to sustain against inflation. But the outcome is that every Joe Shmoe out there cannot afford a house anymore. We are all living the consequences of this greedy culture and system. The same goes with guitar resellers. I do not mind if luthier X charges me 7-9K for a guitar. But I won't like it, if he makes one for a reseller and then the reseller sells it to me 1k higher. This is inconvenient (3 year waiting list, after all, there are many resellers that get 1 guitar/year) and brings the average prices higher for the wrong reason.
4. I do not agree that people should not have a verbal opinion if there are not subject matter experts. Then only politicians should vote and only car-makers should drive. Of course we should be respectful and careful when we verbalize our opinions
5. I also do not believe that there should be discrimination against people that are not self-employed or "looked after by a company" as it was put in words. I am sure that there were no bad intentions but such comments come out the wrong way and may be misunderstood. I have been working for companies all my life and it is an easy bet, I admit. No risk, steady work and paycheck. But I also do consulting jobs on the side in top of my daytime job. And it is not easy. It is hard work, extra hours when I should be resting (or playing my guitar :). Would I like to do just consulting and be my own boss? Of course. But life is hard, I didn't inherit any money, do not have a major talent that can guarantee me a living, so I need a "real" job. I know, I do not have the balls to quit my daytime job and just do consulting (web design btw if anybody interested :) but if somebody tries my lifestyle he will see that it is not easy either. :) Quite the contrary, people like are entitled to an opinion too, because they know that money does not come easy and valuate goods in a mature way.
6. Shouldn't luthiers work instead of posting in forums? Come on you guys. That is why there is a long waiting list. :)
7. This thread was too long for me to read and I may have missed some episodes, hence some of my thoughts expressed may haven been irrelevant or just plain wrong. I apologize if that is the case.

Cheers
Dino

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 9:16:20

Tom Blackshear

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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to elgreco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

Haven't most of you accused Conde Hermanos in other threads about being overpriced? :) (It was about time there was a Conde reference to this thread) So hopefully, I won't hear any anti-Conde propaganda ever again. :)

Dinos

I never have said anything about Conde prices that I know of. I cut my teeth on a Conde guitar back in the 60's. But since Spain joined the common market, prices have gone much higher than what I paid for a Ramirez guitar in 1965, $200.

I think the point here is that we live in inflationary times and everything is caught in this higher price trend, not just guitars. The price of bread is higher and I don't buy milk anymore; I don't need it and I use that money for eggs.

We can always complain but it's the true innovators that get up and set a new path for the things they want. They learn how to save and set aside the money for things that they want. Classical guitarists do this and flamenco guitarists should learn how to do it instead of complaining.

Complaining never made anything better, only created anarchy on occasion, with no real value added.

If someone decides to step forward and offer a solution to the problem of higher prices, then fine, but this incessant quibbling gets us nowhere.

I make approximately 17 to 20 dollars per hour when I sell a guitar at retail. I can make 5 times that amount by cleaning carpet for a living, which I did for 20 years :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 12:35:40

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I don't buy milk anymore; I don't need it and I use that money for eggs.

On first read if found this statement very humorous. But it makes practical sense in the same time, as cow milk not being healthy to human body at all, while latest info on nutritinonals being that eggs weren´t as cholesterine heavy as claimed over past decades ( and after a certain, correspondingly aimed pharmaceutical campagne in oder to create cholesterine hysteria / sell drugs ... Come to think of, besides: Introduced through conductings of merely six bribed doctors, yet enough to diffuse over the whole world!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Complaining never made anything better, only created anarchy on occasion, with no real value added.

Without wanting to be nit-picking I thought it worth to point out that the term "anarchy" commonly is being associated with egocentric, reckless and chaos producing behaviour; while minds who warship anarchy aim at what e.g. Wikipedia names with:

quote:

A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder).

Aiming for a societal order under direct power of the people, instead of decoupling / of handing over to privileged minorities entitled to rule over public.
Which again in my view means something valuable, instead of detrimental.
Just saying.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 13:59:21

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I make approximately 17 to 20 dollars per hour when I sell a guitar at retail. I can make 5 times that amount by cleaning carpet for a living, which I did for 20 years :-)

Makes sense. I earn about the same selling guitars cheaper directly to the costumers. And I could earn a lot more using my university degree. But who cares. I have for both milk and eggs.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 16:30:49

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

I make approximately 17 to 20 dollars per hour when I sell a guitar at retail. I can make 5 times that amount by cleaning carpet for a living, which I did for 20 years :-)

Makes sense. I earn about the same selling guitars cheaper directly to the costumers. And I could earn a lot more using my university degree. But who cares. I have for both milk and eggs.

I think it's the passion that prompts us to be poor :-)

But I hear the voice in my head that says to keep on building.

If it is not for the money then what is it that drives us?

Obviously, it is not the money.

I think that just like playing becomes an extension of our soul, so does the building process. We have to express our soul in a never ending battle of thought and purpose toward perfection.

Sometimes it becomes an arduous task.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 18:03:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Aiming for a societal order under direct power of the people, instead of decoupling / of handing over to privileged minorities entitled to rule over public.
Which again in my view means something valuable, instead of detrimental.
Just saying.

Ruphus

I think that every team has to have a captain with the authority to lead the people; regardless of which societal effort is being made.

With Guitar making by an individual, we pretty much make our own rules based on the idea that we must make a saleable product.

I suppose there are always better ways to make a mouse trap but seeing that many of these experiments don't gain an immediate popularity, we have to accept our limitations and learn how to run between the rain drops.

I formed my own solution by having a day job. Now, at my age, I enjoy building guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2010 18:27:17

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I think that every team has to have a captain with the authority to lead the people; regardless of which societal effort is being made.

... seeing that many of these experiments don't gain ... popularity ...

People seem to progressively start seeing this differently.

Curiously, minutes ago, in a political talk-show in German TV ( channel ZDF ) politicians aware of peoples´ trend, felt pressed to feign that "We need more direct democracy" ( a public taboo until right now!) ... "more proximity to parties base" etc., eventhough all of them being from established parties, evidently and traditionally all for indirect ( manipulative ) societal construct.

Remotely similar news like last night, with a documentary about femal qualification. Showing the success of the "weak gender" as graduates, or in leading positions in Uganda or in Norway, or in companies who discovered the benefits as well; that way having improved their balance considerably.
It was also pointed out that a depression like the current wouldn´t had occured in the first place, if only there weren´t nearly all males in banks leading departments. ( Eventhough I remember that it was a female banker who took over the original idea of a male collegue for her bank, which then started the branches cyber speculation / economizing of the last bubble burst.)
The reason why females being better suited for leader tasks than average males is that they are being less vain in cognitive concern, as well as being prepared to consider and team up.

The past centuries have shown that captains can´t reconcile general spirit and rule for their personal and short-sighted interest.

If there will be a future, it will exclusively be under basic change of paradigm towards democracy and reason. Reason again, inherently including community in terms of concerns as well as of authority.

The relevant question only is how late the attempt to change will be occuring.
Not easy to imagine it "in time", considering how much time things usually take while it being 5 to 12 already.

So much about societal concerns, which have little to do with the question wether guitars are being built better by either single luthiers or teams. ( To which I´d personally think that a single person at the bench might be rather promissing than a group of people.)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2010 0:03:50

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

So much about societal concerns, which have little to do with the question wether guitars are being built better by either single luthiers or teams. ( To which I´d personally think that a single person at the bench might be rather promissing than a group of people.)

I think the single builder has certain space to form his ideas without having to be confused by outside influence. But this works against him on occasion, when the actual sharing of ideas works best.

Lester DeVoe told me the other day that he is now having his guitars finished by an expert finisher of French polish and Lacquer.

I envy that kind of position, as it would save me so much time by not having to do it myself. But the other consideration is that all of my guitars are built and finished by my hand; even though it doesn't seem to make a big difference in today's market.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2010 16:02:41

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Lester DeVoe told me the other day that he is now having his guitars finished by an expert finisher of French polish and Lacquer.

Interesting.
When I told him that I would see some micro scraches on that one 2008 specimen, and kindly asked him to please give it one other buffing before sending it over, he mentioned that he´ll do it for me, but that such surface was normal for his guitars / related to a very thin layer, just covering pores.

While recently, I think to have seen a photo somewhere on which one of his latest appeared so sparkling. ( Maybe one of those he took to Paco de Lucia this year; I dont remember exactly.) Maybe that one was already finished by the expert.
I guess the finish will still be very thinly applied though, otherwise Mr. DeVoe might have not outsourced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

But the other consideration is that all of my guitars are built and finished by my hand; even though it doesn't seem to make a big difference in today's market.

If the finish is done expertly outside the shop, I´d think it to be no downer at all. The more if a luthier e.g. switches to poly-x-laquer only for not to expose himself to nitro anymore ( which I think to have heard of on occasion). Especially in such a case, it seems only reasonable to let the finish be done by an expert who has a dedicated spraying cabine with suck-off device installed to omitt toxic fume.
But all the other work I think ideally should be a luthier´s pride to accomplish himself, or at least in his shop under his immediate supervision.

What counts in the end is the quality of the instrument, regardless, but as a customer I appreciate the idea that all the woodwork has been done by the master himself; and possibly other fellows might be deeming so too who grant themselves a handmade guitar.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2010 8:54:04

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

What counts in the end is the quality of the instrument, regardless, but as a customer I appreciate the idea that all the woodwork has been done by the master himself; and possibly other fellows might be deeming so too who grant themselves a handmade guitar.

It's rather crazy but at this stage of my building career I have received orders that I've not generally sought after, and they are quite ready to pay higher prices than mid market.

Perhaps it's a collectors thing happening :-)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2010 15:49:46

Tam DL

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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The market certainly doesn't price guitars high enough at the moment. The market may not be perfect but it's one strength is price discovery. For most people in NA lutherie is not only not going to make you wealthy, but it is not going to pay the bills. For there to be a reasonable market, there needs to be a lot more demand or a lot less supply. Since in NA anyone can make and sell guitars, the market is oversupplied. People who want to buy the best suffer even greater pressure to look for brands that denote quality since the lutherie trade does not regulate its membership in any way. I am fine with that result, I don't like regulated markets, at least of this type, where nobody's wing is going to fall off. That is just how it is. Individual luthiers have no control over this. Most handmade guitars are ridiculously under priced, And until prices rise to the level that a un-trained handyman who has been in business a week gets, I don't see the point is protesting it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2011 1:47:47

Tom Blackshear

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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tam DL)

quote:

Most handmade guitars are ridiculously under priced, And until prices rise to the level that a un-trained handyman who has been in business a week gets, I don't see the point is protesting it.

It's really is a matter of passion for the art, there is no real reason to build guitars to make a living. There are too many other business trends to do that. But once you are hooked, it's hard to get away from it, as it becomes an extension to your soul.

My attraction to the guitar has always been the sound/voice. This is my primary reason for building. Otherwise, it has no real compelling factor for me, as a player, since there are so many other guitars on the market, that I could find any one of them to be fairly comfortable to play.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 15:12:11

Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I agree with the getting hooked on the sound/voice thing. Its also a main reason for me. To this I will add that it gives me a lifestyle that I can live with. Its very demamnding but you are your own boss and can work when you feel like. I cannot funcion with "standard" working hours.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 15:33:43

Tom Blackshear

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RE: Blackshear/Reyes style (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I agree with the getting hooked on the sound/voice thing. Its also a main reason for me. To this I will add that it gives me a lifestyle that I can live with. Its very demamnding but you are your own boss and can work when you feel like. I cannot funcion with "standard" working hours.

Well, there are many independently owned businesses that can give us time to rest but money only comes from being active in our perspective trades. If we sit too long then the wolf comes knocking at the door. I like to think that my creative side is being nourished by guitar building, and my 2 hour lunches with my friends takes care of my social side.

All in all, it's a jungle out there but it is also a beautiful way to live if there is a good balance between rest and earning money :-)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2011 15:04:12