RE: Music theory is way too complicated

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mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

quote:

Have you read Manolo's book? I am getting tired of this. Do you need the english version? Do you not speak, and read, in Spanish?

in case you hadn't noticed, this is an English language forum. Some people here are fluent in Spanish, some people have no Spanish, I guess most of us (myself included) are somewhere in between (and i'm sure many, self included, are engaged in ongoing learning of spanish as well as guitar). It's not only "uncivil" to harangue members of an English language forum for not being fluent in Spanish, it's a bit pointless....

If you make any kind of statement on this forum, you are putting it up for discussion, for people to agree, disagree, question, etc. If you defend your statements by telling us all to go read a book (regardless of the language it's written in) that's pretty lame, why not explain what you are talking about yourself? And post examples?

Alternately, why not post up the relevant sections of the book for us all to see, with translation for the benefit of those of us less than fluent? Or even just post up the relevant section/s and maybe someone else will translate (there's at least one pro translater hereabouts!).

None of this is a personal attack on you, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to Manolo, you don't need to tell any of us what a maestro he is, I'm sure most people here count Tauromagia as one of the top flamenco guitar albums (well, I do anyway), and I waited years for Mundo Y Formas to be re-released on cd as I knew it existed for years but couldn't get hold of it.

Also, although I've never been on his courses myself, I know people who have, and a good friend of mine who I play dance classes with every week was on one of his very early courses alongside Vicente.

I'm fascinated by Manolo's ideas, I just don't know what they are yet....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 16:11:23

coreydefresno

Posts: 68
Joined: Nov. 5 2010

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to XXX)

quote:

could any of you guys who seem to have understood manolo, post an example of what he means, ie what E7-Am thing should be avoided???
in solea i have never heard that the key changed to Am without going back to E some time.
in buleria we all know many of them move from A to Amajor or Aminor, WITHOUT going back to A.

I will as soon as I return from the Juan del Gastor workshops in SF today and tomorrow. Probably, Friday since Thursday is a holiday here.

CW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 16:17:57

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 16:54:51

XXX

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

do you have a youtube link or could you upload something por favor?

let me say 2 things

1) Changing the key of solea to Am does not happen. It simply doesnt occur, not even in modern (for the big big majority at least). So, whatever "issue" Manolo in this regard has, it is not more than with one or very few specific recordings.

2) The question whether it is following the cante or not is irrelevant, because you could take a singer, change the key to Am and make a cante/guitar performance with a solea in Am. Wheres the point? Look at Bulerias btw (i guess you will say its not a "jondo" palo etc...).
The point is simply that Manolo didnt like it and is now b*tching a bit about it. Granted i dont know which recording he means, hence im not defending it per se. But it is really not more than a simple taste issue. I see absolutely no future for these kind of "rules", and again, it is very easy to find counter-examples (Bulerias going to minor/major).

BTW: there was a traditional solea falseta (in A) going to A major at some point. I think the singer was Diego Clavel? Im sure he is considered flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 16:56:12

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 17:55:25

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

quote:

You need to go back to your teachers and get lessons in humility. Ask your Spanish friends if they know ANY great artist that acts without humility, and in fact acts boorishly, rudely, uncivil.

I think it may be better to talk with my therapist Dr. Parker about this stuff. All I have done is post a few videos to show my points. Thats not exactly uncivil is it? There are plenty of examples. E and E7 both function as dominant in these cases so pulling back on your original statements to try and create some wiggle room.

Many letras move from E or E7 to Aminor. For dance accompaniment the change is often repeated to add a musical vehicle for the dancer to add their "contestación", many times though in the accompaniment of "cante solo" it is common to quickly return to E as to avoid the finality that may be perceived by the listener if A minor is dwelt upon.

Oh wait a minute there is another example...... Caña.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 17:57:54

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 18:04:44

XXX

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
How many soleas do you know in minor? Don't nclude the cambio/macho.
0, none.

Sure. Im not saying it has been done, but it CAN be done. No matter what any authority says about it

Im sure there was a time when bulerias was used to play only in A. Doesnt mean that you cant make a good buleria without using A as your tonic/key. (Tangos, Alegrias, probably more palos can coexist with minor/major. Btw if somebody managed to compose an ALEGRIAS in phrygian, with a happy sounding, then i would be seriously impressed!

)

Btw i found the Solea letra, starts with major. Now imagine it ENDING with major. Or moving in and out between phryg/major. Why not?
http://www.foroflamenco.com/upfiles/3458/Db85160.mp3

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 18:11:45

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

2) The question whether it is following the cante or not is irrelevant, because you could take a singer, change the key to Am and make a cante/guitar performance with a solea in Am.

Sure.

Sure? Not sure at all.
I could tell you right away what Manolo (maybe) or any other purist would say to such a performance (if they didnt like it) ...

no puro, no jondo, no flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 18:25:05

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 18:27:27

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 18:29:20

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

quote:

quote:

1) Changing the key of solea to Am does not happen.

Exactly. We agree. However, in the modern toque, guitarists can go to Am as a final resolution in a phrase. They will usually eventually go back though.

I sort of agree here. I have composed falsetas that modulate through many different keys before returning back to E Phrygian.

This one I usually place after playing a falseta that has a strong E phrygian pressence so that it creates a sense of moving away and returning by taking a less familiar path. It begins with a C# minor harmony ( the relative minor of the parallel major of E Phrygian Dominant) that moves to a brief Minera resolution that then moves to F Phrygian Dominant, C Phrygian Dominant, A Phrygian dominant and G Phrygian Dominant before returning back to E Phrygian Dominant.

Here is a PDF file with the Notation and TAB. Enjoy!

Modulating Solea Falseta

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 18:41:04

coreydefresno

Posts: 68
Joined: Nov. 5 2010

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Exactly.
The example Manolo gave, which I explained in a previous post, is the young guitarist at one of the competitions. In solea, he kept resolving to Am. He lost the competition.

But that is an example of a guitarist who either took too much artistic license, or was not familiar with the cante. You are right Deniz, in Solea it SHOULD always go back to E. In this SOLO, the guitarists was not constrained by the cante and he took some liberties.

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for referencing that competition. Manolo speaks of this every year as an example of why one should not do this resolution to Am from E7. Especially at the end! Flavio Rodrigues does this on purpose on his album called "Anyway" He knows it is incorrect, and does it "Anyway."

Cheers,
Corey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 19:20:46

coreydefresno

Posts: 68
Joined: Nov. 5 2010

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to XXX)

quote:

2) The question whether it is following the cante or not is irrelevant, because you could take a singer, change the key to Am and make a cante/guitar performance with a solea in Am.

With respect to the author of this quote: This is the most grave mistake anyone could make in flamenco. I will bet you my last dollar I know exactly what my teacher would say, Solea in Am? "Eso es flamenco de mierda del culo!"

Respectfully,
Corey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 19:24:47

coreydefresno

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 19:28:05

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

quote:

Ah yes, the roof of the Hotel Hespedes, in Cordoba, one of my favorite hangs.

I am proud that Fresno State has such a treasure!

CW

That was actually in Florida.

quote:

I am tired of this, it is obvious that no matter how completely I answer you, you still say these things? Why?

Because it IS acceptable to move from an E7 to an A minor in Cante Jondo in my opinion.

quote:

If I were to spend my days answering to BS like this, I would never practice.

So what I am saying is B-ullS-hit? I don't practice very much anymore. If you have to practice 16 hours a day to play the way you do, I might suggest to you a better approach to practicing. If you insist on referring to what I post as BS then shouldn't I have the right to talk about your playing? Up until now I haven't really criticized your playing. I did make a satirical cartoon where a superhero wearing a toilet hat and a roll of toilet paper on his unitard as an emblem confronts a colleague about a fictitious series of events including "making it" with a flamenco dancer on Juan Serrano's desk and not cleaning up afterwards. I have mentioned it before here that I am a fan of comedians Bill Hicks, George Carlin and Andy Kaufman. Sorry if you are still upset about that, but I did apologize.

This doesn't change the fact that I still feel strongly about the possibility of changing from E7, E7(b9), E7sus4(b9), E7(b5), E7(#5,b9) or any other voicing of the E altered dominant chord to an A minor chord if I wish to do so as an artist. I don't myself look to anyone else for approval of my compositions or improvisations. I have been asked by many to explain how I approach harmony and I am pretty open about it and try to share with those who are interested. You qre speaking for another person and I am pretty sure as often is the case that things get lost in translation.

quote:

Do you need the english version? Do you not speak, and read, in Spanish?

It is widely known that I don't speak/read Spanish very well. No headline there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 19:42:30

Escribano

Posts: 6415
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From: England, living in Italy

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

Cool it chaps. You disagree, fine we know that by now. But have another spat and make even more work for us volunteer moderators - and the threads will go offline for good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 19:48:13

JasonMcGuire

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 19:50:23

XXX

Posts: 4400
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to coreydefresno)

quote:

ORIGINAL: coreydefresno

quote:

2) The question whether it is following the cante or not is irrelevant, because you could take a singer, change the key to Am and make a cante/guitar performance with a solea in Am.

With respect to the author of this quote: This is the most grave mistake anyone could make in flamenco. I will bet you my last dollar I know exactly what my teacher would say, Solea in Am? "Eso es flamenco de mierda del culo!"

Corey,
through all your posts, i dont know what it is, if its lack of security or too much faith in authorities... first a discussion is more than just the exchange of quotes or opinions of authorities. Furthermore, gaining wisdom, experience does not work with such a limited attitude. A teacher who does not learn or is not willing to learn, is a bad teacher. Or am i wrong?

I dont know i just think the only limit that art has is TASTE and not some "do not go to this chord" way of thinking. I consider this to be very vulgar and to be honest, dumb.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 20:13:59

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
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From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to XXX)

there are many truths, one mans truth may differ to another mans truth, but all truths should be respected - Dan Inosanto (Student of Bruce Lee)

lets get off the E or E7 to Aminor issue.

So i'm gonna ask a question in the next post in relation to a query i've had about tonos de levante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 20:21:06

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
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From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to henrym3483)

most of the common progs i've seen for tarantas form tend to lead from
F#-Bm-A7-G7 resolving on the F# chord.

Any other transitions that are possible?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 20:23:24

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to henrym3483)

I was speaking in general comments ("a teacher", "a discussion"), as i always do, and my comments can be applied to everybody whom they can be applied to, ie they are not bound or directed to one or specific persons.

Whats happening here is flamencos worst face, and i dont think this way of thinking does any good to this art form. But anyway, i have no problem of ending this here for me. Lucky me, i dont have to deal with this kind of thing in real life

I will also try to convince more with music and less with words.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 20:25:17

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

most of the common progs i've seen for tarantas form tend to lead from
F#-Bm-A7-G7 resolving on the F# chord.

Any other transitions that are possible?

B7(b9), Emin7, G/F, F#7sus4(b9)

D7,G,E7,A, D7,G,G7(#11),F#7sus4(b9)

C7(#11), Bmin, C7(#11), Bmin, E7, A, G7(#11), F#7sus4(b9)

Bb7(#11), A, G7(#11),F#sus4(b9)

A7, D, G7(#11),F#sus4(b9)

Bmin9,Bb7(#9),Amin9,Ab7(#9),G7(#11),F#sus4(b9)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 20:37:06

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 20:45:14

henrym3483

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

B7(b9), Emin7, G/F, F#7sus4(b9)

D7,G,E7,A, D7,G,G7(#11),F#7sus4(b9)

C7(#11), Bmin, C7(#11), Bmin, E7, A, G7(#11), F#7sus4(b9)

Bb7(#11), A, G7(#11),F#sus4(b9)

A7, D, G7(#11),F#sus4(b9)

Bmin9,Bb7(#9),Amin9,Ab7(#9),G7(#11),F#sus4(b9)

nice

noodling with this will keep me happy for ages. thanks jason.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 21:36:45

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2010 23:59:01

cathulu

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

One of my former guitar teachers was strangled over a gig at a cafe! How's that for colourful!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 2:01:06

KMMI77

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From: The land down under

RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Guest)

quote:

quote:

When accompanying solea i often hear guitarists play the above chord with a rasqueado strongly marking 1,2 3, then silent on the 4,5,6 then sev, en 8 marked as down strokes then E7 on nine and Am on 10.

I've posted this several times.

Manolo is really talking about using that at ends of phrases.
See this:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=152670&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#152955

In the last post I list relative keys.
C major - A minor - and E phrygian are relatives.
Not much separates A minor from E phrygian.
Moving to A minor in itself is not "fatal" or "letal."

But if you move to it at ends of phrases (Cadences), it changes the system from phrygian to minor. That seems to be what Manolo is against (at least in his book).

That is why I say Phrygian in flamenco is TONAL WITH SOME MODAL TENDENCIES.

In E phrygian, you can borrow alot from A minor. Those final cadences HAVE to stay in phrygian though...or the system changes.

So when you go from E7 to A minor in the first line of cante...IT IS OK because the final line will always take you back to E.

In solo guitar, the guitarist either 1) MUST return to E phrygian, or 2) take artistic license and potentially lose a concurso. SEE ABOVE

Thanks Romerito, Sorry to frustrate you,

I look forward to your video in the other thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 3:24:19

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 4:14:29

marduk

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RE: Music theory is way too complicated (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

Music that is made out of only two techniques would be helluva primitive and boring.

i think a capella music (just voice) can be amazing, and full of emotion.

i have not had the pleasure of hearing any great flamenco singers perform old stuff along to the accompaniment of a a couple of people bashing compas out on a table. but i would give just about everything i own (apart from my guitar) to get the chance to

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2010 6:10:39