RE: Santos Hernandis

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Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Siroco03)

i once bought one of these japanese guitars with "spanish name" on ebay.
mine is "Jose Rodriguez"

- anyway i just paid 280 euros on ebay. and its a great sounding guitar and good playability.

ebay is really good for stuff up to 300 , 400 bucks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2011 22:31:40

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

I'm going to start a new line of guitars called Sanchis Hernandis and have them made in Bangladesh by children under age 12 from dismantled rusting oil tankers which they will break apart with primitive homemade pry bars.

This way it will provide a job to the needy and recycle toxic oil tanker hulks into hand made art. They will be very expensive, but it will be worth it for the sonorous tones and special heavy metal timbres leeched from the ship paints.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2011 1:19:00

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 22:33:08

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2011 11:58:39

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

I've got a strong feeling he acquired this guitar for next to nothing somewhere and thought he was going to make a small fortune off of it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2011 14:39:27

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 22:33:16

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2011 14:57:42

odessit2

Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 9 2010

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 7 2011 3:32:15

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 5:00:00

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

If I had the money I would make a handsome offer for it. I would love to have that guitar. It looks pretty good and if the top is not original, well then the rest of the guitar looks Santos to me. Part of a Santos is better than none.

As a guitar maker and restorer I would like to study any part of a Santos guitar, so for that reason I believe the instrument has worth. For a collector who wants a whole instrument, that is a different deal. If it is a a real Santos, to a guitar maker or researcher it has tremendous value.

I would also like to have it for myself because if another wrecked Santos guitar ever came up for sale it's possible the rosette or top of a wrecked Santos could be made to work on that guitar. At least a rosette. I hope someone intelligent buys that guitar and holds it in reserve until it can be put right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 5:17:36

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 5:23:15

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 22:33:35

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 5:35:08

odessit2

Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 9 2010

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 6:16:49

odessit2

Posts: 11
Joined: Nov. 9 2010

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 6:22:52

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

I live in the San Francisco bay area, but I don't think I'll be in LA anytime soon. If I do come down there I will contact you. I don't have a big name in the guitar world, but I have seen enough authentic Santos guitars to tell an obvious fake from a real Santos. And I have enough experience to tell which parts are not original. I would like to see it for my own education and edification, but there are people in LA who could give an opinion on which parts make or may not be authentic who's opinions may carry some weight.

If you had it looked at someone you may get some clarity on just which things are authentic an which are not. Perhaps you've even done that already, but if not it may help sell it. My main interest is that if it is in part an authentic Santos, and it's very difficult to tell from photos alone, that it be bought by someone who can conserve it intact for study.

I thank you for your offer of being able to look at the instrument in person, and if I am able to I certainly will. And if you make some money from it more luck to you. It's all part of the game.

Stephen

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 7:37:30

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to M.S.A.)

quote:

Still, if I had 7000 I would get a top level Conde or Devoe not a thing of an unknown origin and sound...

if i had that money, i would get two de la chicas or one manuel bellido. **** devoe and conde, worthless crap.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 7:48:17

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

**** devoe and conde, worthless crap.

Now you've done it. I'm clearing out of this saloon. There's gonna be a gun fight.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 13:33:15

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

Ugh, how much can a luthier learn from a guitar that at best is half a neck, back and sides of a Santos? If he finds someone stupid enough to give him a wad of cash for it all the power to him but there is a real reason he got it for nothing and not because no one knew who Santos Hernandez was lol. This is about as exciting a find as a hyundai with 426Hemi badges on it and just as authentic.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 14:59:14

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to M.S.A.)

I'm a bit lost here...

...which guitar is Japanese, the Santos Hernandez type or the Antonio Hernandis??

Odessit2 - are you also Erog?

help?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 18:20:08

M.S.A.

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 22:33:55

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 19:13:15

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

Im willing to sell an authentic Yamaha CG171SF built by Antonio de Torres in 1869 and used on all of the recordings Nino Ricardo made with Paco de Lucia

Im only asking $23,475 US (no refunds)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2011 20:03:15

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Sean)

quote:

how much can a luthier learn from a guitar that at best is half a neck, back and sides of a Santos?

A hell of a lot if it's authentic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 0:12:01

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to TANúñez)

Oh Tom don't go away mad, I just had too much whiskey and not enough loose women in saloon. Shoot the piano player not me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 0:14:38

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

I looked at the photos of this guitar again. I looked at as much detail on the interior as possible. I doubt this is an instrument made in Japan for Sherry Brenner.

Too many things add up to Santos:

Back strip grain is oriented lengthwise instead of cross grained.

The back liners are rounded over and made of the same beech wood Santos used in that time period.

The headstock a neck material look like the same stocks of wood Santos used at that time.

The attention of the scarf joint on peg head transition into the neck looks correct. The heel looks correct although broken. The letting in of the binding on the back looks right.

I could tell more if I could see the scallops in the back braces and how they are let into the beech liners.

There are enough reasons to give this further examination as a partial Santos. I've personally seen Santos's guitars with the backs off while under restoration and have had time to really examine what the interiors look like. From the detail in the photos this looks real to me. In my opinion this is not Japanese commercial work from the 1960's.

I say it warrants the benefit of a doubt until a Santos expert can see it in person. It's obviously the not original top and the only way to tell anymore about this guitar is to examine the bracing and interior of the top with a mirror and light.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 3:53:17

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

Here' s the back of an authentic 1924 Santos in my shop. They look pretty close no? Enough reason to look more carefully at the eBay Santos.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 4:01:41

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to estebanana)

In a very old book, about the flamenco guitar by David Geroge, the writer, talks a lot with Manuel Reyes......here something about fake Santos Hernandez guitars in the 60ties........Reyes is 33 years old in the time the book has writen, and allready a known builder.

Part from the interview is attached.

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 7:40:01

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

Very old, from the 60th.... So you consider me to be very old???

Putting different labels in guitars was and is a common sport in Spain.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 8:10:01

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

How old you are, depends on how long you are going to live Anders.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 8:16:58

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Santos Hernandis (in reply to Arash)

The Flamenco Guitar by David George.

As much as David George's interview with Reyes is a gem, on the history of the guitar he is an unreliable narrator. The book is poorly researched and written as far as the guitars origins and history.

The part about the Santos forgery comes in because Reyes tells a story about a guy who comes to his shop with a guitar Reyes himself had build a few years earlier. The guy who is a crook says to Reyes, you make a great guitar in the style of Santos, let me put some dirty varnish on it and you fix a few things here and there and I will paste in Santos label I made and sell it as a original Santos. We'll make lots of money which I will cut you in on. Reyes kicks him out of his shop and says never come back. The guy comes back a few days later and says the same thing, Reyes physically ejects the guy from his shop and then never sees him again. Reyes played it by being honest and not making money off of some other makers name.

The connection between Santos and Reyes is that Reyes, like a lot of good flamenco guitar makers, began with a study and admiration for Santos. Reyes worked to understand Santos' ideas and methods. However in terms of construction practice details and materials they each used, Reyes and Santos are different. Early Reyes guitars from the 1960's had a different structural and materials vocabulary than the Santos guitars built forty years earlier in the 1920's and 1930's.

The devil is in the details. Details like Reyes did not use the beech wood linings that Santos often used. Reyes shaped his linings differently than Santos and his hand is lighter than Santos' in the work. Reyes venerated Santos, but the materials he had and his choices for transitions between neck and head stock, width of tuner slots etc. were different from Santos. He did not appear to be in the habit of making bench copies, but wanted to assimilate the lessons and sonic attributes of Santos into his own style. Aesthetically Reyes and Santos are a bit similar, but different enough to see an independent style and materials choice on Reyes' part.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2011 8:19:56