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How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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apak

 

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010
 

How much do you really enjoy cante f... 
As a very beginner unseasoned student, I have been too timid to express this opinion, but might as well: I really can't stand most of the traditional cantes in flamencos. Especially when I am mesmerized by a toque in a song, I cringe when the wailing kicks in, and wish there was a way to turn it off so I can enjoy the beautiful playing

I should mention that I have a middle eastern background, so the wailing of the cante in flamenco is eerily similar to what I have grown up with in the classical and folk music of my country, and even more so in the sonic tradition of reading religious texts, as well as the call to prayers that hammered in head many times a day during my childhood. So it is not a matter of me not being accustomed to it, but rather the opposite: I always hated that vocal style, and now I naturally hate something that was derived from that tradition (as I understand we have the moorish influence to thank for this - yuck)

This is not to cause offence to anyone, as I understand some of you are highly sensitive to anything that may come across as disrespectful to any aspect of the flamenco tradition. I just wanted to know if anyone else also shares this opinion, and loves flamenco specifically because of the guitar and the percussion rather than the vocals.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2010 23:21:26
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
I couldn't stand it when I got into flamenco. Now, solo guitar albums usually bore the hell out of me. Cante is what I love most about flamenco now.

I would love to tell you that it's often an acquired taste but since you said you're used to it anyway, that argument won't hold. So yeah, I don't know...too bad. It transports so much emotion for me. I couldn't live without it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2010 23:27:39
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
firstly, that makes sense.

I am not especially fond of long rounds of cante listening. for me 20 minutes tops and then i need to refresh my ears.

I'll be the first to admit that i am the least flamenco.

Secondly, as per your background, it sounds like theres some issues interfering from your cultural past. perhaps a reconcilliation with whatever negativity you have associated with those things might open you to accept cante more? speculation at best on my part.

my two cents

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2010 23:28:27
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3032
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
Listen to more modern singers at first to ease into it.
I guarantee you, if you like flamenco guitar, you will eventually develop an appreciation for the cante.

Just try the lighter stuff first
A 6-hour wailathon of martinetes, tonas, caña and seguiriyas would turn anybody off. In fact I think that would qualify as an "enhanced interrogation technique"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2010 23:42:20
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
quote:

As an unseasoned student, I have been too timid to express this opinion, but might as well: I really can't stand most of the traditional cantes in flamencos.


Then move onto another form of music. Flamenco is all about the cante. You are insulting the very reason why guitars ever played in the flamenco style. You can't love flamenco and hate Cante. You wouldn't be the first to ask this ridiculous question and certainly won't be the last, but the answer is the same. Eventually you will realize that Cante and Guitar are things that can't be separated and that you can't really understand an art form as tied to its singing as flamenco without intense study of cante.

Of course if you just want to dabble in making Spanishy type sounds on your guitar in your spare time thats one thing.... but if you are serious about flamenco guitar, then you must also be serious about cante flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2010 23:58:59
 
itoprover

Posts: 346
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
I hated cante when I just started to listen to flamenco recordings long time ago. I guarantee you will feel completely different when the singer is sitting next to you - singing will give you goose bumps. You will even love it more when you will start playing for a singer because at this very moment everything you know about flamenco guitar and flamenco in general is starting to make sense for you as a guitarist. I kinda dislike dancing now tho lol.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 0:00:59
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
quote:

I really can't stand most of the traditional cantes in flamencos.


I made a similar statement about a year ago and received similar replies, polite yet stern. Since then, I made quite an effort to appreciate this inextricably crucial component of Flamenco. Although I do not understand or care for many voices and songs (nor for many guitar solos along with their guitarists), I have grown quite fond of Cante.

My first steps… these two videos (soleas). I hope they will serve you well.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 0:11:12
 
apak

 

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

quote:

As an unseasoned student, I have been too timid to express this opinion, but might as well: I really can't stand most of the traditional cantes in flamencos.


Then move onto another form of music. Flamenco is all about the cante. You are insulting the very reason why guitars ever played in the flamenco style. You can't love flamenco and hate Cante. You wouldn't be the first to ask this ridiculous question and certainly won't be the last, but the answer is the same. Eventually you will realize that Cante and Guitar are things that can't be separated and that you can't really understand an art form as tied to its singing as flamenco without intense study of cante.

Of course if you just want to dabble in making Spanishy type sounds on your guitar in your spare time thats one thing.... but if you are serious about flamenco guitar, then you must also be serious about cante flamenco.


Your credible opinion noted. But since I have offended, I might as well run the risk again: I still have the audacity to say that I have had more intrinsic exposure to the root of the flamenco cante than perhaps even you, and I just dislike most of it. But there is still so much music in my own national tradition that I love, and I would be surprised if someone came along and told me "hey buddy, that ain't gonna work! You either love it all, or move along!"

So I do not agree with the package deal way of thinking about this. I adore the flamenco toque, and see no reason why I can appreciate it without the cante. Unless you are thinking one must be in all respects and forms embrace the lifestyle of Andalusian gypsies to appreciate flamenco at all.

But I'm curious, if one day you are in Morocco and the the Azaan starts blaring, do you start thinking "wow, this is beautiful music to my ears." ? Please do not take this is a ridiculing question... I am simply curious.

And again, please read my opinions as just that, perhaps educated or not. I have no intention to cause offence to anyone's respectable values and ideals.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 0:12:28
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
I can respect that. You have more exposure to the root of flamenco. I can live with that.
What you do and listen to is up to you brother. Don't let me stand in your way. But my advice to you as a flamenco artist is to embrace the cante as well as the dance and guitar. I won't hold it against you. Just sharing an honest opinion.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 0:31:14
 
apak

 

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to HemeolaMan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

Secondly, as per your background, it sounds like theres some issues interfering from your cultural past. perhaps a reconcilliation with whatever negativity you have associated with those things might open you to accept cante more? speculation at best on my part.

my two cents


My friend, that may well be! But that's a massive can of worms that even no psychiatrists would want to touch with a 10 foot pole :D :D
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 0:31:55
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 0:34:04
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
In my case, it's the guitar that got me to flamenco I did not care or particularly liked the cante. Then I spent a month in Seville and I came back loving cante and dance.

But there's nothing wrong with not liking cante. It's music and it's for you pleasure, take what you like.

The funny thing about flamenco is it's about gypsies and freedom but man I have never seen so many rules.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 1:19:44
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to rogeliocan) 
quote:

Then I spent a month in Seville and I came back loving cante and dance.


yup, cante sounds 10000% better in real life!

i listen to more cante cds than solo cds. with cante cds, you get both, the singing AND the guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 1:27:58
 
apak

 

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to gj Michelob) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

My first steps… these two videos (soleas). I hope they will serve you well.



Thank you, I appreciate the input.

Yet in most cases, if the beautiful guitar is taken away, it is hard for me not to hear that what we are left with are the overwhelming trace of these stuff in the cante (actually the first example is one I enjoy somewhat - in rather small doses):



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 1:44:45
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3032
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
quote:

Yet in most cases, if the beautiful guitar is taken away, it is hard for me not to hear that what we are left with are the overwhelming trace of these stuff in the cante (actually the first example is one I enjoy somewhat - in rather small doses):


Just a couple of differences:

-Flamenco singers are not usually reciting the qur'an
-Totally different melodic and harmonic structures (yes the cante does imply harmonies)
-Flamenco is full of emotions and dynamics, not stiff and chant-like
-Flamenco singers interact with a COMPAS that is different from what you posted and is shared by all flamenco musicians.

I could go on...
It's completely your choice to listen to what you want, but you are way off base in these comparisons. As I suspected (and you admitted), your current opinions come from complete ignorance... that will change. Don't force it on yourself, but keep looking around. You'll find something you like and it will lead to other things.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 2:00:37
 
apak

 

Posts: 57
Joined: May 23 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

quote:

Yet in most cases, if the beautiful guitar is taken away, it is hard for me not to hear that what we are left with are the overwhelming trace of these stuff in the cante (actually the first example is one I enjoy somewhat - in rather small doses):


Just a couple of differences:

-Flamenco singers are not usually reciting the qur'an
-Totally different melodic and harmonic structures (yes the cante does imply harmonies)
-Flamenco is full of emotions and dynamics, not stiff and chant-like
-Flamenco singers interact with a COMPAS that is different from what you posted and is shared by all flamenco musicians.

I could go on...
It's completely your choice to listen to what you want, but you are way off base in these comparisons. As I suspected (and you admitted), your current opinions come from complete ignorance... that will change. Don't force it on yourself, but keep looking around. You'll find something you like and it will lead to other things.


Of course that is not AT ALL flamenco, not in any way of their structure, and it would be ridiculous to suggest so... not even me in all my uneducated ignorance. That I should have made clear...

It was simply to convey what it reminds me off, much like a son's facial resemblance will remind you of his father, even though they are two completely different people. That's all. And often the son is not much prettier than the father.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 2:04:11
 
elroby

 

Posts: 142
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 2:08:18
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3032
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
Just wait til you find yourself in a situation like this



It will all make sense. pure Aire and Compas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 2:15:33
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
quote:

Yet in most cases, if the beautiful guitar is taken away, it is hard for me not to hear that what we are left with are the overwhelming trace of these stuff in the cante


Oh heaven forbid anything that would take beauty away from the all important guitar. Where would society be without guitar. Guitar is probably the source of gravity and is what keeps us from flying off into space. Without guitars, banjos would be way more prevalent and we would only hear happy songs forevermore.



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http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 2:21:22
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to elroby) 
quote:

The first thing that attracted me to flamenco was the guitar since I already played it, followed closely by the dance


Hi Roby!!!! cool... didn't know you were a member of the foro. Welcome to the circus.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 2:23:54
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 3:10:52
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

For example, Alfredo Lagos has been talked about in this way.


I love his playing. His brother David is great too..... wonderful singer and both are great people.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 3:25:30
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 3:35:30
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
Manuel is great. A real angel.

I haven't accompanied David, but I did take him to get some looootherie tools one day because in his free time he builds guitars. He was in a show with Yaelisa and on his day off the last thing I would ask him to do was sing more.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 3:47:47
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

Holy smoke Jason. You are on a posting frenzy.


Trying to make up for my absence...

900...... ahhhhhhhhh

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 3:50:19
 
Leendert

Posts: 153
Joined: May 27 2010
From: WI, USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
quote:

I couldn't stand it when I got into flamenco. Now, solo guitar albums usually bore the hell out of me. Cante is what I love most about flamenco now.


Exactly how I feel!!...Although I would not go as far as I couldn't stand it, I was just not used to it, but it really grew on me, so much that as you say, just hearing an instrumental album makes me really miss the cante now. It's like it's not complete.
I had this talk like last week with Antonio..:)

quote:

Holy smoke Jason. You are on a posting frenzy.


Haha, yeah I had noticed too!...Nice!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 4:08:08
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Leendert) 
I will try to hang around a bit. Its been fun hanging out here again today. Of course I have been talking mostly to myself..... and ToddK and Romerito....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 4:18:16
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
Some cante Cd's really give me the s#%^&!!

Especially when the singer is WAY to high in the mix.

Singing is best live, Go to spain and hang out in bars. Interacting with a singer should enhance your appreciation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 4:48:29
 
elroby

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 5:02:25
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to elroby) 
Nice Roby!!! We are going to have fun. Lets break the rules!

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http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
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http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 5:07:00
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