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RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

If you think the guitar is of no importance, then you have to live with the fact that your artistic value is irrelevant


Thats it. My artistic value is irrelevant. Guitar is of no importance.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 22:23:58
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
Who's Cante is better and most puro?

Michael Jackson/ Madonna or Camaron/Carmen Linares

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 22:44:16
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 23:43:35
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2010 23:46:34
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
Hi Apak, start with very soft voices , female, etc.
Then just wait ..... and you will see as time goes by.,,,,your taste will change



I hated Cante when i started with Flamenco. Now i like it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 0:38:32
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 4:08:06
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
I'm not spanish. Never will be. Don't care.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 7:10:49
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

if you think that guitar adds anything of artistic value to flamenco, then you have to accept the fact that people may like guitar while disliking cante (i dont).


"People" is a broad category to make a judgement about an art that comes from a relatively small space in the world and from Gypsies and non-gypsies in Andalucia. Also you are making a value judgement as a cultural outsider.


Im not making a judgement! Im just logically deducing from the "if" sentence.
Assuming from your post that the guitar adds something to flamenco. That means we can have two people liking the exact thing, maybe with exact identity in tastes (same guitarrist, style, tracks), but only the judgement of the cultural insider is relevant? What if the cultural insider doesnt like cante either? What if the outsider has developed greater abilities regarding any discipline of flamenco music (guitar, rhythm, accompaniment)?
I have no doubt that you can choose to see flamenco as a solely cultural thing, but that would mean, that flamencos are not special people because they can DO something special (ability, tastes, knowledge), but because they ARE something special (ie cultural identity).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 7:28:51
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 7:35:36
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

quote:

If you think the guitar is of no importance, then you have to live with the fact that your artistic value is irrelevant


Thats it. My artistic value is irrelevant. Guitar is of no importance.


Jason theres hope for gringos like you and us... here look, a cultural insider:


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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 7:41:18
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

Pimientito: Do a survey of flamencos to see what they would choose if given the choice between solo guitar and accompaniment. Maybe you can shed some light on the flawed arguments here.


Good point! Obviously the flamencos prefer to hear accompaniment than guitar solos. I think that for the purpose of the forum though the question is slightly different. Thats because there are some forum members who have a deep love of the flamenco art and want to learn to be as authentic as possible while others just want to play well with flamenco technique without being flamencologists.

I think to play authentic flamenco you have to be a bit obsessed and definately have to spend bit of time in Spain to understand the culture of the people and understand the structure of the cante in the different palos very well.

If cante doesnt interest you and you dont want to learn to appreciate it or study its structure then all you will end up doing is play a guitar very well with good technique....I just dont think it will sound like real flamenco and you wont be able to join in with other flamencos around the world.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 8:28:43
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 9:06:11
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

Well what is it?


Here is my theory about the structure of cante.

Some people sit around and get drunk. Someone says, "Hey i made up a song."

The others say, "Lets hear it!" The song is sung. Someone pulls out a guitar and says, "let me try and work out the chords for that, can you sing it again?"

After some noodling and practice they make up a name for the style and perform the song. Some people like it and say this is Flamenco puro.

One guy sitting at the back goes home and works on his own version of the song. He finds another guitarist and they repeat the process.

A few months pass and both groups are now performing the same palo. The original is Puro and the other is nonsense that has failed to follow tradition.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 9:37:27
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

You keep emphasizing the structure of cante. Well what is it? What are you referring to?


I am not sure what you are trying to get me to say here. I am sure I dont need to explain that each palo is not a random form. Each has a fairly rigid structure and from there are variations. Modern cante can sometimes vary a lot, eg diego Cigala is very hard to accompany. It is not my intention to write down the structure of every different palo in my reply here. That is what listening to flamenco is about. You need to listen to cante every day for a long time to understand the chord changes in each palo.

They say the root of the cante is the Fandangos. You should know that (in general) the structure of the chord sequence is pretty much identical each time.
For example por arriba the first change is C major to F to C to G back to C down to F and crescendo on E. You can put passing chords in the sequence for variation. This will be identical for nearly every fandangos. If you add a bit of compas you get a malagueña. If you play the same sequence in B then you get a Granadina. If you do the same in F# you get a Taranta. Alegrias has a fairly recognisable chord sequence in each verse as does solea. Ok thats flamenco rules in a paragraph !

Bulerias and tangos follow the cante. For example the rosa maria follows the structure of tangos, the first change is to Dmin then follows down through to the Ab9. From Ab9 in any given palo the singer is either going to change to Bb, C or D. He may sometimes change to Emajor. What the guitarist has to do is hear the change and play the chord. To start with it will be difficult but edventually your ear gets used to the changes given that you only have a choice of 3 or 4 chords that the singer will go to. If Im playing a chord of Ab9 and Im not sure of the next change then I will think about going to C. Quite often this will be correct. If not then its going to be either D or Bb so you can change up or down accordingly and not sound like you have gone wrong. The only way this all works is if the singer knows what he is doing. If the singer cant transmit the changes then the guitarist is going to have a lot of problems. Listen to good singers, try to understand the basic chord structures in each palo and soon you will be playing real flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 12:11:04
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 12:17:20
 
fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
I think that this is a great topic, and probably hits home for a lot people. Most people that I haver talked to about this share in the thought that they love the guitar, but cant stand the singing.

I personally really enjoy the cante, although I have to admit that I still don't really understand the structure. I couldn't point out a mistake if my life depended on it.

There are a few palos that drive me nuts and I just don't have the nerves to take much of them. Martinete, Seguiriya, sometime Malaguena and Granaina, depending on the singer of course. All of the other palos I really enjoy, especially if its a favorite singer. I love Camaron, but sometimes he gets on my nerves and I need a change. Same thing with Poveda - I love his voice, but I tire of him quickly.

I love hearing the difference in the older recordings. I always like Fosforito, and strangely enough, I found that old Jose Merce is very similar to Fosforito - that angry type of singing, very snappish and direct. Thats how I hear it anyway. But the old stuff is great. I have a hard time listening to Arcangel, find him to whiny and light.

So I think all in all, who you've listened to will greatly influence whether or not you like flamenco cante.

My two pesos!
Vic
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 17:07:15
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to apak) 
Vicente once said... its a lot easier to entertain with singing than with the guitar.

As ghetto grandpa you just need a pink shirt open your mouth and shout something. And you are set for beeing an authentic 1st class flamenco singer.

Its like football.. So many people like it coz you just need to kick a ball. Foot to ball...foot to ball... And they are set to manage the national teams of the world.

The catchword couch-footballer is also true for flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 17:51:27
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to fevictor) 
Keep it light......



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 17:52:28
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

As ghetto grandpa you just need a pink shirt open your mouth and shout something.




Somebody needs to compile a collection of these Doit gems

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 17:55:57
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

As ghetto grandpa you just need a pink shirt open your mouth and shout something. And you are set for beeing an authentic 1st class flamenco singer.


Unfortunately true..

In my time in Spain, in small Bars there would often be some drunk full of Spanish wine and machismo who would stand up and tuck his shirt into his trousers and pull himself up to his full height to show his dignity and shout some out of tune and unintelligible sounds out to all and sundry, whilst totally ignoring the guitar accompaniment..

Best was one night in Madrid when some drunk was grabbing me by the shoulder and telling me "Hey chico..Do you know what the Spanish flag stands for...eh?....It's the Blood and the Gold....El Sangre y el Oro..", screwing his face up and clenching his fist in front of my face.

Just then a drunk Legionnaire took out his pistol and fired some shots into the ceiling... and the place cleared rapidly...

A truly mad evening indeed.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 18:16:39
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to JasonMcGuire) 
quote:

Keep it light......


And maybe add a little cante in english,



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2010 22:56:16

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to KMMI77) 
quote:

And maybe add a little cante in english


Gee, those guys are pretty good ahha

That was friggin rediculously awesome...

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 0:52:18
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to KMMI77) 
So much fun... thank you for posting this, 'loved it!!

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 2:54:36
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 7:25:08
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 11:40:22
 
mecmachin

 

Posts: 171
Joined: Aug. 7 2010
 

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
I like your thoughts. But I think it doesn't need a genious in this case.
To start with, it needs minimum 2 people speaking the same language. They should know about compas, drunken or not, and not be afraid to dare something unusual . Maybe this would allow them and others to really live their passion some day.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 12:20:22
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Pimientito) 
quote:

I think to play authentic flamenco you have to be a bit obsessed and definately have to spend bit of time in Spain to understand the culture of the people and understand the structure of the cante in the different palos very well.


almost every second person that studies flamenco goes to spain this days...not almost everyperson comes back playing "authentic"...flamenco...if you got good ears know how to or can relate and what to listen for you can hear it 5000000 miles away on a cd or the other side of the coin... miss it 5 minutes away ..i think overall and most importantly is to do with the individual then it is to do with the location...even in spain there's spanish born guitarists that play more or less "authentic " than each other if the individual is not the deciding factor they should all have the same level of authenticity since they all have the same contact and understanding of the culture


I got no problem with saying that going to Spain is very VERY important and beneficial but i got a problem with saying that what i do is not authentic flamenco.....especially since if we going to get down to it my culture and where i was born and grew up and how we are and think and our mannerisms, language and our history is way more similar than yours to the Spanish culture..weather you reside or visit there or not...the same way that i assume your mannerism, attitude, way of thinking and body language, understanding of certain traditions is closer to an Australian as a person coming from and English background then mine coming from a Romanian background...yet i now live here

u might know more about how the alegrias as a palo came about and where it came from... from asking and studying it but i might be closer to knowing on how they might express it and process it ....since the culture i was born and grew up with's way of thinking and attitude might be closer

just an example, no offense intended..u may very well be the exception and understand way more than even a native what the hell do i know, i dont know you or your abilities, but if what you saying plays any kind of deciding role in the hoping to acquire authenticity then so must what i am saying be... no ?.. ...personally i still think the final deciding factor its all down to the individual



and about Cante, to me there's nothing more important or more pleasurable ...and then again nothing is any less pleasurable ...i agree with whomever said to truly love flamenco is to love all of it ..you cant separate...its flamenco weather the emotion comes from guitar or voice or a dancer...its all saying the same things but i do accept that cante is an acquired taste...some love it straight away some take longer...and also personal preference of type of voice you prefer plays a role too

if you plan to be around flamenco for a while eventually it WILL grow on you..it will grow so much that you will do what Richard does, skip the guitar solos to get to the cante tracks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 15:30:38
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Mike_Kinny) 
quote:

I think Mozart was the first to use a non-Italian language in an opera.
Of course I'm not sure but hey who else would have the balls and recognition to do that?


Jean-Baptiste Lully (1632-1687) from Wikipedia:

"Lully founded French opera (tragédie en musique or tragédie lyrique), having found Italian-style opera inappropriate for the French language. Having found a congenial poet and librettist in Philippe Quinault, Lully composed many operas and other works, which were received enthusiastically. Lully can be considered the founder of French opera, having forsaken the Italian method of dividing musical numbers into separate recitatives and arias, choosing instead to combine the two for dramatic effect. Lully also opted for quicker story development as was more to the taste of the French public."

I've no idea whether Lully was the first to depart from Italian, but he preceded Mozart by a couple of generations and was the dominant figure in French music during the reign on Louis XIV.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 15:51:00
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How much do you really enjoy can... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
When I first started listening to flamenco back in the era of Sabicas, Escudero and Niño Ricardo, I often skipped the cante tracks. Now I'm much more likely to skip a guitar solo.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 15:55:15
 
Mike_Kinny

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2010 16:40:54
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