Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





What does 1A mean?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

What does 1A mean? 
The first, and only time I have tried a 1A was with a second hand Ramirez guitar. I thought that 1A was an indication of quality, for a shop like Ramirez, build by their most experienced luthier.

But now I have seen single luthiers making 1As so I wonder if my first thought was correct, is it a quality or a model?

If it is about quality, does a luthier start off wanting to build a 1A or does he decide after building it and playing and listening to it?
And if it's the first case, how does one build a 1A, do you buy 1A wood or do you wait until you come accross wood that fit your quality standard? Does it mean you put more attention in building a 1A than the other guitars?

What makes the difference?

Thanks in advance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 17:48:13
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
primera.

_____________________________

[signature][/signature]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 18:02:28
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
rogeliocan,

It usually means "primera calidad" and uses the best materials.

Luthiers know that each guitar will sound and feel different in the end and have it's own character which may please or displease individual players.
No really responsible maker would ever sign his name on a "bummer" though.
After all, that's his main advertisement.

I believe Anders builds his occasional 2A's to the same standards as his 1A's, but uses woods that in his opinion are good, but not the very best, plus spend less time on the rosette and fine detail and less expensive machine heads and case.



(That's what I think anyway. )

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 18:02:48
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to Ron.M) 
Thanks, that makes sense.

So who makes the decision on the quality of the wood, is 1A wood ordered, and so, quality decided by the people selling the wood or does a luthier get to go somewhere and pick the wood they want?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 18:21:53
 
Martin

 

Posts: 150
Joined: Nov. 21 2004
 

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
Someone I know bought a Ramirez 1a pretty cheap from an ex pop star. At the time he was just getting into guitars and thought, well 1 must be first class and 1a those that didn't quite make the grade. Not having a case for it, he took it into a guitar shop in London. Apparently the man behind the counter's eyes popped out when he saw it just carried in without a case. And my friend left with a carbon fibre case. It is a lovely giutar from the 60's.

_____________________________

"Let me assure you that I am playing all the right notes...... but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecombe
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 18:39:32
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
quote:

What does 1A mean?


Well, a bad sounding guitar with the best wood, with the best pattern, with the best tuners etc...doesn't deserve the term 1A.

I believe in the end one will make the final decission if its worth the 1A category. (At least I hope so for obvious reasons)

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 18:43:18
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to kozz) 
quote:

I believe in the end one will make the final decission if its worth the 1A category. (At least I hope so for obvious reasons)


I would hope so too but I'm not sure about that, let's see what the pros say.

I bet that a single luthier would do that because their reputation is key to their business but that a guitar factory, with an already set big name would not....and so, for these guys not all 1As are really 1As.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 18:48:25
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
quote:

I bet that a single luthier would do that because their reputation is key to their business but that a guitar factory, with an already set big name would not....and so, for these guys not all 1As are really 1As.

Do factorys do that?
I think that 1A is from ChinA than

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 19:05:39
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to kozz) 
quote:

Do factorys do that?
I think that 1A is from ChinA than


Sorry, that was not a statement, it was just a thought/question.
I tried a factory guitar worth just over $2K with a rosewood back (not a super expensive guitar but not cheap either). It had a big fold in the wood on it's back, something that you would have clearly noticed building and finishing the guitar. I could not believe someone would actually build a guitar with wood like that. That is why it would not surprise me on a factory 1A.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 19:24:32
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
It mean's about £7500!! hehe Perhaps adds a level of prestige

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 19:25:50
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
As far as I know, the whole thing started with Ramirez sometime around the 60’s. 1A’s were built by the tenured journeymen, while 2A’s by the apprentices. 2A’s would be constructed of lesser quality woods. What is interesting is a lot of the older Ramirez Brazilian rosewood 2A’s have wood superior to what you would find today.

In the 60’s and 70’s the infamous US guitar dealer James Sherry would put a label over the 2A designation of the Ramirez guitars he was importing. I think the label would reference them as “Segovia” models.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 19:59:21
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
I think "2a" guitars are an opportunity for a luthier to make a guitar that may sound just as good as their primera, but are easier to make or cost less in materials.
If I were to make a 2a, I think there are a few areas I could cut down on time and expense, while still producing a great guitar:

-No back/side purfling
-Less intricate or possibly factory made rosette
-unfancy tie-block inlay
-lower grade back/side wood (Palo Escrito instead of Indian, or cosmetically downgraded wood with wavy grain etc.)
-possibly lower grade top wood that was selected for tonal properties but cheaper b/c of aesthetics
-possibly lacquer finish instead of FP
-lower priced tuners
-not putting in frets
-not cutting out the sound hole









j/k on those last two in case it wasn't obvious

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 20:40:56
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
no frets... funny.

I understand that, you could make a more affordable guitar with less or no frills.
So it's about the materials and things that can be considered as extras, the care in building stays the same.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 21:04:09
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
quote:

So it's about the materials and things that can be considered as extras, the care in building stays the same.



It may or may not. If it’s from a small one or two person shop, it likely would be. But if it’s from a production builder, it’s likely to be a construction issue as well.

I have a guitar from the Rafael Romero shop that was built by his workers (not by him). It has some cosmetic issues you probably wouldn’t see in his high end stuff that he builds. All and all, though a great guitar for the dough.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 21:14:44
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
Yeah often the 2a's are farmed out

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 21:18:15
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to Patrick) 
I bought several 1a's from Jose III and imported them to the USA. I never bought a 2a. My recollection is that the 2a's were built by the same oficiales [journeymen] as the 1a's, but with materials that were considered slightly inferior. Good back and side materials were hard to come by in the quantity demanded by Ramirez' expanded production in the 1960s after Segovia started playing his instruments.

Manuel Contreras, Sr. and Felix Manzanero both told me how rigorous Ramiriez' quality standards were, and how exacting the examination that a builder had to pass to be qualified as an oficial.

It would have been totally out of character for Jose III to put his signature on an instrument built by an apprentice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 21 2010 21:34:15
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

If I were to make a 2a, I think there are a few areas I could cut down on time and expense, while still producing a great guitar:

-No back/side purfling
-Less intricate or possibly factory made rosette
-unfancy tie-block inlay
-lower grade back/side wood (Palo Escrito instead of Indian, or cosmetically downgraded wood with wavy grain etc.)
-possibly lower grade top wood that was selected for tonal properties but cheaper b/c of aesthetics
-possibly lacquer finish instead of FP
-lower priced tuners

Interesting that this discussion came up since we're considering making a lower priced flamenco. We're going to build a couple of test guitars with no purfling, no black/white wood on the overlay, no color in the finish and less sanding on the interior. I think we can cut about $1000 off the price by these simple changes. The wood will be no different than the primera since we don't have any second grade wood.

We're all suffering with the bad economy and musicians are among the first to be cut. Since we are semi-retired we can take a cut in our profits without much impact so why not? We've even given some thought to donating every third guitar to a needy musician.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2010 0:20:40
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to rogeliocan) 
Hehe I like to keep things simple as whole and charge extra for fancier things. So far no one has worried that the endblock decoration isnt mitered and the tie block is just two straight lines of bone. Sure a factory made rose will help keep production time down, but lets face it those factory made rose's are great anyway! So it doesnt actually lesser the quality. So infact could end up devaluing your higher end product.

As an apprentice I would make parts for instruments that would end up on the 1a 'Master guitars'. We also tried making 2a 'Red Label' Which was made only by myself. Everything was simple factory rose simple bindings/perflings. We still used materials that were suitable for a guitar though. I only made two of these guitars because they sold too quickly (within two weeks) they were priced at £1000 cheaper than the master guitars, which is a fair step, but left the more expensive guitars hanging on the rail.

I think there are alot of things in this business that can create the illusion of extra time and cost and even more things that add cost and time that don't help add value.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2010 7:34:04
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

I believe Anders builds his occasional 2A's to the same standards as his 1A's, but uses woods that in his opinion are good, but not the very best, plus spend less time on the rosette and fine detail and less expensive machine heads and case.


Totally correct
I just wanna add 1 extra thing. The reason for having different models. (How many Bernal models are there?) is to cover a market. Some dont have the money for a 1A.
I normally make 1 2A guitar a year and this year I wont make any. Thats why its not on my website.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2010 10:03:24
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: What does 1A mean? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
1A means its not the one built by an apprentice with scrap wood

_____________________________

http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2010 20:45:28
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.