Building a 1934 Santos flamenco style

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

Building a 1934 Santos flamenco style

Building a 1934 Santos flamenco style

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I know this topic may not be the interest of many of the readers of this list but I'm just about ready to build, either an earlier model of the 1968 Faustino Conde flamenco design, with my fine tuning concept, or a 1934 Santos style.

What I wanted to do is check with the list members to see which design they would prefer. I'll admit that the Santos design would be closer in harmony with the pattern I'm currently working with but that I haven't built it in a long time to see what would actually happen with this new fine tuning.

However, the fine tuning should improve the voice and articulation of either one. So, which one would you like to see built?

If the Santos turns out well, then I might contact GSI and have them sell it for me. If it does not turn out at least as good as their advertised '33 Santos original, then I won't bother.

I think the trick is going to be to get the modern articulation and the sound together.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 17:43:08

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Santos.

actually Tom, I'd rather see you build an original Blackshear design. Go out on a limb. I've only ever seen your versions of other guitars but I know you can make something totally wild if you try!

Cooome on!!! you know you wanna!!!

If it turns out that it sucks, I'd be happy to scrap it for you too

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 18:04:45

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Santos!

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 18:22:29

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Santos!

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"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 19:15:35

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

Santos.

actually Tom, I'd rather see you build an original Blackshear design. Go out on a limb. I've only ever seen your versions of other guitars but I know you can make something totally wild if you try!

Cooome on!!! you know you wanna!!!

If it turns out that it sucks, I'd be happy to scrap it for you too

My own designs are not unique but understood to be a culmination of many master designs I've built in the past. The knowledge comes from the building process, not just sitting down and thinking about it.

But that both are used to secure any kind of innovation, which is essentially not a new concept with traditional guitars but that we gain additional insights to move further with the ultimate finished product.

In other words, my designs worked but they left me with no real feeling of accomplishment; but to get into the masters' minds and techniques. This is the real challenge for me.

So, how many more of you want the Santos design?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 19:58:24

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hy Tom

The Santos really sounds wonderful. It has that distictive flamenco growl that i'm after too. If you gonna build the Santos, please let us know about your experience with this model. I'm very curious to learn more about this guitar too.

Best regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 20:08:06

daffey

Posts: 98
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: Los Angeles, California

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Armando)

Santos ~

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 20:40:29

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Hy Tom

The Santos really sounds wonderful. It has that distictive flamenco growl that i'm after too. If you gonna build the Santos, please let us know about your experience with this model. I'm very curious to learn more about this guitar too.

Best regards

Armando

This particular sound is quite nasal and the difficult part is in trying to duplicate the coughing freight train sound/sensation under a good rasguedo, in unison with the bell-like quality of the trebles. Then get the 6th string to drop off a cliff into the bowels of the earth while the middle register provides an echo.

I think I've got most of it but we'll see if I can put it together in his style. In other words get ready for a blast from the past :-)

And yes, if this works, then I'll be happy to share information about it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 3 2010 23:20:30

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

i would say santos =)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2010 0:06:58

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Nice I like the sound of the Santos. I build in a similar fashion to santos. My latest Blanca was a peg head and sound great. It was bought by the London guitar centre if anyone wants to check it out!

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2010 9:07:43

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I would like to see/hear a good early era Conde. So many people have done and are doing a Santos inspired guitar. That's just my opinion. I'm sure whichever you decide will be something special.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2010 12:28:13

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I would like to see/hear a Barbero. Has anyone done a fifties Barbero?

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2010 14:23:57

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

I would like to see/hear a Barbero. Has anyone done a fifties Barbero?

I've done a few 50's styles in the Barbero motif, which were not bad, but I find I'm going more toward a 7 fan brace pattern than a 5 fan brace. Most Marcelo Barbero guitars I've had a chance to view are 5 fan braced patterns with 2 bottom stiffeners.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2010 16:24:04

jlneng

Posts: 118
Joined: Jun. 28 2009

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Santos Please! I had the good fortune to beat up a couple of 1930 Santos Flamencos at Zavaletas this spring and one was a giant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2010 17:30:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to jlneng)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlneng

Santos Please! I had the good fortune to beat up a couple of 1930 Santos Flamencos at Zavaletas this spring and one was a giant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, I think that the Santos is a good choice, since Manuel Reyes has taken some of his style from this master builder.

Reyes seems to have gone on to a more modern articulation and this is certainly a case and point to try on an older Santos pattern.

What I've learned in fine tuning since the 80's should be quite interesting to try on the Santos style. I know my 1934 Santos plan intimately, so this will be a compelling factor to try for the ultimate in voicing this style.

It's a smaller guitar than the Reyes but it has character coming from its inner dimensional style that says, "build me and see what you can find."

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 4 2010 19:46:51

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

OK, I think that the Santos is a good choice, since Manuel Reyes has taken some of his style from this master builder.

From your researches, does it look to you like Reyes got some of that Santos style indirectly from his "idol" (his term) Barbero, who himself was influenced by Santos?

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2010 2:55:19

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

quote:

OK, I think that the Santos is a good choice, since Manuel Reyes has taken some of his style from this master builder.

From your researches, does it look to you like Reyes got some of that Santos style indirectly from his "idol" (his term) Barbero, who himself was influenced by Santos?

I believe that many ideas changed hands through a European standard that all guitar makers shared. It wasn't as if each maker had his own unique design but they were incorporated through this sharing process, either directly, or by investigating one another's instruments, and then they took on their own individual style with small changes.

50 years ago most designs were pretty much the same.

But I think there are basic trends with-in some designs that are closer to a parallel approach, than other designs. This is the reason I think the current Reyes style is compatible with the older Santos 7 brace patterns, as far as fine tuning is concerned.

This close association with the two builders gives me some ideas that could make the Santos more powerful like the Reyes but retain certain qualities that make it more characteristically a Santos.

I don't have all the answers at this time but I think there is good reason to build the guitar to see what the outcome is.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2010 3:57:01

flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I agree with TANúñez...I would like to hear early conde sound.
many did santos...beside I think conde has more distinctive sound..maybe my taste only!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 19:54:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to flamenco_9)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flamenco_9

I agree with TANúñez...I would like to hear early conde sound.
many did santos...beside I think conde has more distinctive sound..maybe my taste only!

I'm OK to build either guitar style but it appears that the Santos lovers have it in numbers vote, so far.....

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2010 20:13:10

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Santos

How long before you start and how many months will it take you to complete?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 3:57:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to RTC)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RTC

Santos

How long before you start and how many months will it take you to complete?

I have one guitar to finish up now and one Rod design to build on order, and then I'll get to it, hopefully by the first of the year, or sooner.

I pretty much know what I'm going to do and if any builder would like to know the ideas, let me know and I'll share some present information now, off line, so that we can do the build together. But the builder will have to have his own Santos pattern to work with. The principle should work on any 7 fan brace design, with no bottom stiiffeners.

My Santos is built more loosely than the Reyes and its a smaller box

tguitars@texas.net

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 11:01:08

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom:
Once you finish with the Santos guiar, would you give the forum members a chance to purchase or will you go directly to a guitar shop?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 18:15:47

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to RTC)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RTC

Tom:
Once you finish with the Santos guiar, would you give the forum members a chance to purchase or will you go directly to a guitar shop?

Honestly, I haven't thought about it except that I've always wanted a guitar I could train my hands on again :-)

We'll see when it is finished, thanks.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 19:04:41

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I vote for the early Conde and i know few others here would vote for that too, if they see this thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 19:22:28

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

I vote for the early Conde and i know few others here would vote for that too, if they see this thread.

Let's do this. I'll wait until the end of this month and whoever chooses to vote on the '34 Santos style being built or the '55 style Conde, place their vote and I'll count the number at the end of October 2010. And which ever is the larger number, I'll start the built sometime this year.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2010 23:45:33

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Why dont you create A vote threaf makes it easier for you to count!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 8:09:57

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

Why dont you create A vote threaf makes it easier for you to count!

I'm not familiar with that but I think this way is fine since it requires a player or builder to post his own thoughts about it in print. At least, some of the list members seem to be doing that. Perhaps it would be better to state why you like the particular Santos or Conde style, as this could not be just a vote but an idea thread as well.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 12:13:39

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hey Tom is the Santos built? Looking forward to some great details on the build I have built two in his splayed 7 fan 650 scale and a third coming with 7 parallel fans in a 655cm scale. I'm sure I could learn a lot from your posts and looking forward to them greatly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2011 21:32:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a 1934 Santos flamenco ... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Hey Tom is the Santos built? Looking forward to some great details on the build I have built two in his splayed 7 fan 650 scale and a third coming with 7 parallel fans in a 655cm scale. I'm sure I could learn a lot from your posts and looking forward to them greatly.

I can't think about it until next summer when I finish the 2 current orders.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2011 2:55:53