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i have one album of Carmen Amaya and Sabicas, i don't think this one, i will have a look out for it
edit: found it here; http://www.amazon.com/Amaya-Sabicas-Carmen/dp/B0008JIHSA track listing and sound samples/previews, but no Tarantos though apparently it's not all sabicas, one reviewer says the first 8 tracks are juan maya marote
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El Niño Miguel : Minas de Riotinto
i do have this one on cd thanks, but think it is libre, not a-compas. i am looking for sabicas or early tarantos a-compas, the dance version.
links? The Paco De Lucia track is called "Viva La Union" and is on "La Fabulosa Guitarra De Paco De Lucia" 1967 (also i have "Tarantos Populares" which is on several available compilations).
The Manolo Sanlucar one is called "Tarantos de Santo Rostro" and is on "Mundo Y Formas De La Guitarra Flamenca Vol 1", also i have one called "Sabor Minero" on an obscure lp called "La Guitarra De Manolo Sanlucar". both early 70's
The Serranito one is called "Presagio" and is on "Virtuismo Flamenco" 1971
I have a record "Queen of the gypsies" which Sabicas accompanies Carmen singing Taranto in compas. He plays in the key of Minera (G#), but the album credits the track wrongly as "Rondeña".
In some of the really old recordings you'll hear rhythmic structure in cante and toque, but the rhythm is nearly always ternary. The binary version you're looking for seems to be a recent creation. One of the first and most important references is Fosforito's "No (tengo nada) que envidiarte" in 1958 with Juan Serrano. It's a recent Philips reissue so you should be able to find it, or I can send you the track if you like.
According to my data, Carmen Amaya's recording is a couple of years older than Fosforito's. About being called rondeña, one of Manuel Torre's tarantos was also labelled rondeña and there's been speculation about some kind of meaning, although the cantes are different.
I have a record "Queen of the gypsies" which Sabicas accompanies Carmen singing Taranto in compas. He plays in the key of Minera (G#), but the album credits the track wrongly as "Rondeña".
Wouldn't be ment: Taranto en tono de Rondeña as it is on Morente/Sabicas - Nueva York?
I have a record "Queen of the gypsies" which Sabicas accompanies Carmen singing Taranto in compas. He plays in the key of Minera (G#), but the album credits the track wrongly as "Rondeña".
Wouldn't be ment: Taranto en tono de Rondeña as it is on Morente/Sabicas - Nueva York?
I would accept that as a mistake, but he played in tono de MINERA (G# phrygian). To me, as in the Torre example, I feel it is just a mistake of labeling by whom ever first printed the album credits.
For the record the Carmen Amaya recording in compas was definantly Binary rhythm, and I am sure pre 58 but I will double check the date. Maybe SHE was the inventor of the binary compas idea for Taranto?
For the record the Carmen Amaya recording in compas was definantly Binary rhythm...
Yeah, definitely toque de minera, binary rhythm and, according to my data, from 1955-56. There's another Sabicas/Amaya recording titled rondeña but it's a typical solo rondeña (just Sabicas playing toque libre). Fosforito's taranto is among the very first vinyl recordings made in Spain (I think Carmen Amaya's disk was made in New York). In 1956, he made a huge splash after winning first prize in several categories of a singing contest in Córdoba.
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Maybe SHE was the inventor of the binary compas idea for Taranto?
Kind of looks that way so far, and I agree about the labelling mistake. I'll post if I come across any more early recordings of this kind. What I have been able to check so far are pre-vinyl solo recordings of Manolo de Badajoz, Manolo de Huelva, Niño Ricardo, Luis Maravilla and others. Among these recordings, I didn't notice any binary rhythms of this kind. In fact, Manolo de Badajoz clearly plays Ramón Montoya's falsetas in sixes with rubato, sort of like the way tocaores used to adapt fandango de Huelva to fandango libre.
Sabicas accompanies Carmen singing Taranto in compas.
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Fosforito's "No (tengo nada) que envidiarte"
thanks for those, i have found them both, both on Amazon as mp3 downloads
i came across a transcription of an a-compas tarantos of Sabicas online while looking for something else, so hope to track down an audio recording, but no luck so far....
In solo-guitar recordings, Juan Serrano's "Taranta de Lidia" starts free form (loosely based on groups of six beats) and turns rhythmic (clearly marks groups of four beats) toward the end. It's supposed to be a 78-rpm recording, although given his age it was probably made in the mid-to-late 1950s like the recordings we've mentioned of Carmen Amaya and Fosforito.
In pre-vinyl cante recordings, some singers clearly arrange certain cantes in groups of four beats although the guitarists don't seem to be anticipating that kind of rhythm in their accompaniment. There's at least one recording of Porrina de Badajoz singing that way in the mid-to-late 1950s, and on earlier recordings from other singers you can hear something similar. So it looks like the binary rhythm is a relatively old idea in certain cantes but it wasn't recorded until the mid-1950s.
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i came across a transcription of an a-compas tarantos of Sabicas
How about a title or some identifying data? I found nothing like that on 11 of Sabicas' solo recordings, the RCA anthology (with Rafael Romero, Camarón, etc.), or on any of his pre-vinyl disks. I might have missed something...
Romerito, lots of conjecture and even fantasy in your post. It's fine to theorize, and conversations about flamenco are often about that, but when someone asks for information, IMO it's in everyone's interest to stick to the facts, or at least make it clear when you're presenting a theory. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly can't make heads or tails of your post. What I see are many loose ends that you're attempting to tie together in order to prove some kind of point, but I don't understand your reasoning or the idea that you're trying to get across.
First of all, there are no known recordings of Manuel Torre singing fandango de Lucena, or singing anything with Ramón Montoya for that matter, but there are five disks of Pastora singing fandangos de Lucena with Montoya. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll post the letras so that we can identify Pastora's recordings.
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El Murciano played a Rondena (18th century). It was transcribed by Glinka (Russian composer) and supposedly de Falla had access to it. Julian Arcas somehow learned it and interpreted variations on it including the cante melody. Tarrega was a student of Arcas and Borrull was an indirect student of Tarrega (and the classical/flamenco guitar debate has another twist).
Well, that's an impressive cast of characters you've assembled there, but if you spend the time you can "connect the dots" almost any way you like. As an ancient folk/flamenco form, it's not surprising that rondeña and other styles appear in several "classical" pieces. Also, Montoya can be considered an indirect student of Tárrega through Miguel Llobet, so this kind of reasoning can be used to defend different points of view. What I find surprising is the "cante melody" that you mentioned. What melody is that?
In the earliest recorded examples, rondeña is a cante abandolao that has nothing to do with the cantes mineros recorded by Manuel Torre and Carmen Amaya.
Torre recorded exactly two letras in as many disks for the same cante: "Adonde andará mi muchacho" and "Darme la espuela."
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Torre sings Fandangos de Lucena accompanied by Montoya in binary rhythm
No binary rhythm there that I can hear in either disk. Feel free to disagree.
Carmen Amaya recorded three letras in a single track with Sabicas, again for a single cante although it's different from Torre's: "Que dame veneno," "Que de calaña, calañés" and "Y abre que soy el moreno." This is the track that Ricardo pointed out, with toque de minera and binary rhythm.
So Torre and Amaya sing different cantes mineros. Rondeñas are cantes abandolaos, which are different from cantes mineros, although they can all be considered part of the huge family of "cantes levantinos" (malagueñas, granaínas, etc.)
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Borrull created the Rondena and Montoya, based on all the previous versions came up with his afinacion (Scordatura) and made the Rondena famous while at the same time erasing Borrull's contribution..
You're talking about Borrull padre, right? Can any of that be proven or is it just "connecting the dots" again? If there's some proof or even strong evidence to back up those claims, I'd like to see it. In fact, I'd like to know about any recording of Borrull padre accompanying cantes levantinos with any other toque than por arriba or toque de granaína. As far as I know, he didn't even record toque de Levante.
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Torre sings Rondena. Carmen sings it. Montoya plays it.
Unless I'm missing something, it should be clear by now that Torre and Amaya did not record rondeñas. The apparent mislabelling of their recordings is the only reason to even mention rondeñas in this thread. Montoya recorded at least two disks of his rondeña. One of them contains a reference to a fragment of a cante, but it's levantica, not rondeña. Sabicas used the same idea in 1931 for an instrumental taranta in which a violin plays the melody of the levantica.
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Eventually, this melody began being called Tarantos, especially by Fosforito but by others as well.
What melody? Honestly, I'm starting to lose count, but it looks like you're talking about at least three very different cantes. Fosforito's "No (tengo nada) que envidiarte" and "Nos queremos" (the second cante in the same track) are binary versions of Manuel Torre's taranto and, as I've already pointed out, Carmen Amaya's cante minero is different from Torre's. None of these cantes are musically similar to rondeñas.
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These melodies have a similarity to the Fandangos de Lucena
The similarity can be summed up as the flatted fifth degree (B flat for cantes sung in E Phrygian). The only thing that this "demonstrates" is a similarity between certain cantes mineros and fandangos de Lucena, which is hardly surprising since both kinds of cante are from eastern Andalusia.
i came across a transcription of an a-compas tarantos of Sabicas
How about a title or some identifying data? I found nothing like that on 11 of Sabicas' solo recordings, the RCA anthology (with Rafael Romero, Camarón, etc.), or on any of his pre-vinyl disks. I might have missed something...
i have no idea, it's on that site "sal's flamenco soapbox" listed as taranto by sabicas (here http://herso.freeservers.com/flamenco_tabs_s-v.html). i only have 4 or 5 albums of sabicas (and some of those are compilations) so wondered if it might be on one of his many others?
Romerito, I think you're taking this personally. I welcome criticism, but what does my website have to do with this thread?
I suspected that your conclusions were based on Gamboa. Do you really think he's an authority on the musicological aspects of flamenco?
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Secondly, compare that melody with Amaya's Dame Veneno or Abre que soy... and you will understand.
As I said in my last post, Montoya quotes a cante called levantica, and the cantes mineros of Torre and Amaya are different. Three different melodies all together. There isn't much point in taking this any further if you're just going to ignore/contradict what I say "because Gamboa says so." Good luck with your dissertation.
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One thing I have learned from my teachers is that flamenco is larger than the sum of its parts.
Let's see...two attacks and I am taking it personally. Not really. With all due respect we have two great aficionados with differing opinions... Gamboa and Kliman. Hmmm. I really respect Kliman but Gamboa is no slouch, even has some important inside connections. Perhaps Kliman does too. If I take Kliman's view at face value, can I consider myself a good aficionado? I can't take Gamboa's at face value either but his evidence is certainly more compelling. I wonder if Gamboa would insult my ego or call my belief in Kliman's solea theories conjecture and fantasy.
As for your Sanz material...it was in response to this.
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IMO it's in everyone's interest to stick to the facts, or at least make it clear when you're presenting a theory.
You stick to the facts but leave so much out. The novice guitarist will leave your site thinking..."Sanz was the most important preflamenco guitarist" simply because you detailed the use of hemeola. It was not a personal attack...just a response to the pot calling the messenger kettle black.
It makes me sad to have to point this out, but this entire first part of your post has nothing to do with the thread. I honestly don't think you're interested in debate and I suspect that you're not even interested in learning, particularly in view of the way you flaunt a title you haven't even gotten yet. Very sad.
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Do you really think he's an authority on the musicological aspects of flamenco?
I don't know him personally.
Who said anything about knowing him personally? This is typical of your behavior on this forum Romerito. You can do what you like but I'm not interested in discussing this any further with you. I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but if you're not able to reason like an adult, we're just wasting our time.
I have never heard a Granaina in a key other than B.
Dude!!!!! I just put one up to you last week so we could have some fun doing harmonic analysis in the off topic music theory thread. Check it yo self b fo you wreck yo self!
I dont' get why you are simply quoting and following Gamboa's work without getting your own hands dirty. I mean forget what he wrote, do YOU really thing Montoya's freaking guitar melody and carmen or Manuel are SINGING are the freakin SAME?????? If you do then man, you are gonna have some problems connecting the dots when it comes to accompanying cante. I mean serious and practical playing not writting papers.
I rubbed elbows with Gamboa in Sanlucar. We played side by side in a few juergas. He was a cool guy, amature guitarist but a good aficionado of course. I have liked and learned from many of this writtings, but when it came to the whole challenge of Montoya creating in a vaccum thing, I have to say was talking out of his butt. It went like this from what I read:
Julian arcas composed a piece called Rondeña, and read music and knew lute tunings. So, his student tarrega had contact or gave "lessons" to Borrull sr in Madrid. Pepe Matrona vaguely remembers Borrull playing a Rondeña guitar solo. Montoya worked with him closely in madrid. THEREFORE, the rondeña toque, tuning and all, comes from.......drum roll.....JULIAN ARCAS.
The end of his research. Well guess what, you can pick up a score of Arcas rondeña in the library and see for yourself IF YOU CAN READ MUSIC (which I suspect Gamboa must not be able to since he was happy to go on Matrona's claim rather then see with his own eyes the proof contrary) that Arcas and Montoya are completely un related musically.
So, having talked with Kliman, and meeting him in person briefly as well, and hearing him play on line, AND seeing his CONCISE and clear examples of well chosen material, that he is more able to get at the scientific heart of specific musical details and their evolutions then someone like Gamboa, who is clearly much more Romantic with his ideas of research.
I only have these few examples, but as a student of this stuff myself, I would easily go more with anything mr Kliman has to offer when we regard SPECIFIC melodies, be they cante or guitar.
I hope Romerito you can keep that mind open before, during, and AFTER you complete your school work. I feel like with the "debates" we had in the past regarding labels of guitar and cante, you still don't like to see a separation of the two concepts of toque and cante, and will jump to agree BLINDLY with any opinion of a spaniard over a foreignor, so long as the opinions APPEAR to be contradictions. I think those two "problems" will inhibit your advancement in the art form.
I only want to say it as a forum buddy it is frustrating for me cuz I think you have a lot advancement already that make it fun to discuss these heavy topics with you, since most people don't have your level of experience or knowledge yet.
I was driving to my gig and thinking about this and remembered something else. Gamboa did that awesome docu series "Tesoros de la guitarra flamenca", which are short documentaries of tocaores taken from archives of TVE. But HE is the narrator and I suppose the compiler of the videos. In the Tomatito one you can see on youtube, they have him play his famous Minera, wearing a pink shirt with conde negra. Well, they label it Rondeña. At first I forgive the mistake because the two tracks are accidentally swapped on his album Guitarra Gitana. Same mistake as in old day records, a mislabeled track. No biggie, but then I thought, well Gamboa should have known better and had a chance to clear it up, shame on him But it makes me go hmmmmm???? cuz, now we have this Carmen Amaya, Montoya, Torre BS. Maybe Gamboa REALLY doesn't hear the difference???? Scary thought.
In fact, I remember having an arguement with someone, I think in Spanish, years ago on line about this same BS over the youtube tomatito vid. How frustrating. Now I realize some smart ass aficionado could, if he wanted, take this tomatito example from 1995, a simple mix up, then go back and say "Look, in 1955 Sabicas plays Rondeña again in G# phrygian same as tomatito here" and BAM they have all the proof they need for the theory that there was never any mislabeling.
Is that Tomatito video above Minera only because of its key? You know that Minera Ab thing. Or is it Minera because of its Melody and its feel?
Pretty much yes, but all 3 points are important. He does do some standard riffs from the traditional repertoire in this, like the E7-F-E move with rasgueado. If he played some of this por bulerias, you could say it is just a buleria guitar piece. But it would be more specific to say "minera por buleria" or "minera buleria" just to be clear. Part of the aire comes from the key alone, the way the open strings and dissonances relate. A lot of this could be transposed to key of F# and YES you could call it Taranta. Or transpose to B phrygian it could work as Granaina. Or put to a 2 beat compas and you can call it "Taranto".
Gerardo accompanies Carmen Linares in this key por Solea. But when playing for cante, it is the cante that takes over the naming of the palo.
beat 1 and 3 are the strong one = your 2 beat system?
tried to write the other day but had problems sorry, just had a moment now.
YES, for me the same beat is counted 1&2& instead. I like to reserve numbers for the foot tap, and always think of my foot as the quarter note (or dotted quarter sometimes). Tientos the same as taranto, a very slow beat or slow quarter note. Medio compas occurs more frequently in Taranto then Tientos or Tangos in my experience. Meaning odd measures of that two beat compas. Ricardo
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