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at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

cana? 

can anyone give me more info about this palo? it sounds to me like a variation of solea.

can i just use solea falsetas and chord progressions?

what makes a cana a cana?
i notice this progression a lot during the ay's, ay's: E F G E E F G E

what can i play for basic compas? and for escobilla? and what's a macho?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 20 2010 19:20:59
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: cana? (in reply to at_leo_87

quote:

can i just use solea falsetas and chord progressions?


Yes, especially things that sound old-fashioned. I prefer that word over "classic," because it's better to leave the more "Arabic-sounding" stuff for soleá. Just my preference, there are no rules.

quote:

what makes a cana a cana?


As always, the singing. Listen to soleá and caña with the letras written out you'll notice differences in the melody and the letra. Polo is very similar to caña.

quote:

what can i play for basic compas? and for escobilla? and what's a macho?


Play soleá when there's no singing. Macho is a bigger and badder cante used as an ending. For caña and polo, the macho is usually some kind of soleá, often a soleá apolá. A really good one is the style attributed to Enrique Ortega.

The main thing is to know beforehand whether or not the ay-ay-ay part is going to be rhythmic, free or handled in some special way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 20 2010 22:00:20
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: cana? (in reply to at_leo_87

Well, I wouldnt say that you can use solea chord progressions. When there´s singing, Caña has its own chord progression, which I havent met in any soleá until now. There are also different versions of la caña.
Also notice that there can be 3, 4 or 6 ay´s

A standard Caña singer is Rafael Romero He has at least 2 different versions.

It will be more correct to say that Soleá is a variation of La Caña than visa versa. La Caña is considered to be older than Soleá.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2010 0:30:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cana? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

It will be more correct to say that Soleá is a variation of La Caña than visa versa. La Caña is considered to be older than Soleá.


I have heard that too. But after learning more melodies, I come to the conclusion that the relationship between the two is very small. Only the compas they share. To me the caña polo, liviana, serrana, etc, are "songs" that at some point must have stolen the compas guitarwise from Solea and siguriya and evolved that special phrasing. (Similar to the Fandangos sung to solea compas that was popular for while).

Perhaps the melodies are older then solea or siguiriyas, but to me don't sound like they are melodic precurssors. They sound more lyrical like Rondenas, verdiales, malaguenas etc, rather then modal like solea and siguiriyas. But they for sure are not fandangos type songs as some many other special cantes are. Again just my impression and theory.

Anyway, yeah you play solea falsetas mostly, and solea or solea por bulerias compas, but por Arriba because of the melody range. The key will be lower for the same singer that sings solea. Maybe a whole step or more (2 frets at least, maybe more).

Playing for baile you might do the first letra slower, more like solea, the 2nd one faster like solxbul, and the macho, as buleria. The chords are not really the same as solea except for Am in the beginning and the F-E resolution. In the middle, you will notice you stay on G for a long time (couple of compases), answering the singer 2x with D7-G.

The end of each letra has a "lament" were just a vowel is sung...y....ah.....or something I can't remember but is specific one time vs the other. That part is either "free" or with a weird 7 beat compas 2x then back to normal 6s. (EFGF EEE remate) etc.

For fasletas, for baile anyway there are a couple standards. Something like PDL is famous for ending his solea with in the 70s that starts in C major and sounds like Alegrias at first, that he added blazing picado to. Then there is a faster bulerias type falseta, again usually for foot work.

The macho por bulerias usually starts out with a big C major chord.

Anyway check out Oscar Herrero's accomp vid for solea. They also do Cana and polo if remember correct. not sure if he shows you those falsetas.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2010 6:58:55
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: cana? (in reply to at_leo_87

thanks guys! that's a lot of good information. now time to just dive into.
i'm sure i'll be back with more questions.

i think i'll be safe playing solea and spb compas for dance but i'd like to find out some of the chord progressions so things don't get stale and i guess to sound more authentic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2010 10:07:59
 
Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: cana? (in reply to at_leo_87

You could use Oscar Herreros chord progressions por Caña,

I learnt them and they never served me anything.
Here, where I am, the singers mostly sing one of the versions that Rafael Romero did. Here you have one with Perico del Lunar, which in my opinion is always worth listening to.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2010 23:38:38
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: cana? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

ole! thanks for posting that anders. the pieces are slowly coming together.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2010 5:38:43
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: cana? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

You could use Oscar Herreros chord progressions por Caña,

I learnt them and they never served me anything.
Here, where I am, the singers mostly sing one of the versions that Rafael Romero did. Here you have one with Perico del Lunar, which in my opinion is always worth listening to.




Thanks for the video link. I was amazed at how good the sound was and I quite liked both those artists.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2010 12:10:41
 
mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: cana? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

I love pericos playing in this video. thanks for highlighting it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2010 15:07:12
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: cana? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

You could use Oscar Herreros chord progressions por Caña,

I learnt them and they never served me anything.
Here, where I am, the singers mostly sing one of the versions that Rafael Romero did. Here you have one with Perico del Lunar, which in my opinion is always worth listening to.



Is the tocaor Perico del Lunar hijo? Looks like he doesn't use thumb rest stroke, which is very unusual.

Again, one can see it more clearly in this video.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2022 20:50:44
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: cana? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

That part is either "free" or with a weird 7 beat compas 2x then back to normal 6s. (EFGF EEE remate) etc.


This is directly related to dancers, who want to do a flashy remate. If you listen to someone like Diego Clavel, everything is in compás.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2022 12:02:34
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3218
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: cana? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

On my first trip to Spain at age 19, what better introduction to the cante than several evenings with Rafael Romero "El Gallina" and Perico el del Lunar hijo at Zambra in Madrid?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2022 6:04:34
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3218
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: cana? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand
Is the tocaor Perico del Lunar hijo? Looks like he doesn't use thumb rest stroke, which is very unusual.


Look again, at for example 2:33 in the Rafael Romero video. You can hear apoyando elsewhere in single note sequences pulgar, even if his right hand is not visible.

In arpegios, where he makes the thumb sound equal to that of the fingers, his thumb stroke is still not the same as classical tirando.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2022 6:24:12
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1153
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: cana? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand
Is the tocaor Perico del Lunar hijo? Looks like he doesn't use thumb rest stroke, which is very unusual.


Look again, at for example 2:33 in the Rafael Romero video. You can hear apoyando elsewhere in single note sequences pulgar, even if his right hand is not visible.

In arpegios, where he makes the thumb sound equal to that of the fingers, his thumb stroke is still not the same as classical tirando.

RNJ

Yes, he does thumb rest strokes during pulgar section. What I was referring to was thumb free strokes during arpegio for example at 1:25-1:35 in the 2nd video. I can't judge whether it looks different than classical tirando. To me more important question is whether it sounds flamenco or classical.

It's suprising because his father come from the school of Jerez. As far as I know Perico del Lunar padre had a long career in Madrid. He must have picked up some non-flamenco stuff there and passed it on to his son.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2022 11:41:13
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: cana? (in reply to Morante

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2022 13:41:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cana? (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante





Thanks for that. A couple of observations since my last post on this topic was many years ago.

1. The lamento is kept in compas (although the tempo is slowed way down) here by Carrion deliberately by omitting the remate (E major arpeggio like Solea always uses), and replacing it with a single low E bass note. I have been kept in compas by dancers doing something fancier that is also only 1 beat there. (EFG,FE-E, etc).

2. The music that constructs the form actually could work as a Solea structurally if after the G chord cadence the C major cambio was used as the melody drops down to tonic (E). But we don’t play that typically, normally there is two cierres on F-E instead, right before the lamento. This suggests that the music of Cana and Solea probably have the same roots.

3. Due to the above structure musically, and the fact falsetas or llamadas come right after the lamento (or even footwork), we typically think of that whole thing as single letra, and then comes the second one, and then the third is the C major macho (Norman points out Enrique Ortega Solea style which is musically the same). However, and this is huge, the actual LYRICS of the letra are not concluded. That entire structure uses repeated lines of verse such that we are only in the MIDDLE of the letra by the first lamento. That means the second “letra” which is the entire structure performed again, is the REST of the verse of 4 lines. That really makes Caña very very different than Solea conceptually, and it is rarely discussed. Since I now recognize the musical structure as related to Solea, I find that THIS thing with the lyrics is THE main difference between the forms. It is also important to note Siguiriyas does a similar split of the letra (llamadas and falsetas can break it up), and there is that style that mimics the Solea Alcala melodically. Perhaps the three forms are all related by a common ancestor? (The mother form split so Siguiriya and Cana delivered lyrics differently, then later Siguiriya flipped the 12-compas pattern for some reason but Caña retained the original as did Solea).

4. Having said all that, the Eduardo Ocón score shows the piece called “El Polo Gitano, o Flamenco”, which starts out with the Ay ay on the C major that mimics the Enrique Ortega Solea that starts on C major (the final Macho letra), and after the lamento actually shows the Split letra dual structure of Caña. The lamentos are both different, and more similar to what is done in the Serrana (maybe that is exactly what it is?). Anyway, it is clearly the Caña, NOT Polo, which tells me back in the 1800s, the titles of these songs were not what we think of them today. Based on the descriptions in Calderon, I suspect the Solea was hiding out as something listed there and much later the Polo became Caña, and a big etc until things got recorded on wax or vinyl.

5. Diego Clavel has book ended this Caña performance with an opening statement “letra” that explains what he was going to do, then after the 3 part Caña he concludes with Solea.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2022 15:44:06
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