The effect of "silk" on spruce (Castillo guitar)

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a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

The effect of "silk" on sp...

I just received my new negra (Euro Spruce/palo escrito) from Salvador Castillo, and it has a truly miraculous sound. Extremely loud with very little effort. It is his new bracing design, which he says gives better projection and brilliance, but this top is also the first I have had from Castillo with "silk" in the top.

In my experience with wood, it looks a bit like the iridescent effect that curly maple gives, but there is much less of it than one normally sees in violin backs.

I've heard that "silk" increases the stiffness of spruce in a cross-grain direction. Is that the case? Is that why it is desirable? The visual effect certainly isn't enough to have much effect on the aesthetic appearance of the top. Could the incredible brilliance and responsiveness of this guitar be partly due to the silk effect?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 13:33:35

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that "silk" is basically present in all woods including guitar tops, but you can only see it if the wood is well quartersawn. So it sounds like he used a perfectly quartered top there, which of course is a good thing.
In other words, you can see that silk in any light colored wood (cypress, spanish cedar, etc.) in the areas where the annual rings are at a right angle to the surface.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2010 14:06:01

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

Are talking about bear claw perhaps? a sudden change in in grain orientation then switching back to its former path. It changes the way the light reflects from the top?

The flaming in in maple occers for the same reason. but in flamed maple the the grain alters its direction aot more frequently.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 0:21:50

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

Are talking about bear claw perhaps? a sudden change in in grain orientation then switching back to its former path. It changes the way the light reflects from the top?

I could be. I have seen three kinds of "silky" grain in woods:

(1a) the typical repeated semi-regular closely-spaced "ripples" that are common in curly maple (aka fiddleback maple). These can extend almost the width of the board perpendicular to the grain. Most common in maple, but I've seen it (less well-defined) in walnut, mahogany, and palo escrito, but in the latter 3 it is frequently associated with burl.

(1b) the same thing but widely and not so regularly spaced (several inches between ripples). The ripples look similar to what is seen in curly maple -- maybe 1 cm in width, extending perpendicular to the grain. This is what I see in this Castillo guitar, and I've only seen it in spruce.

(2) a short grain ripple with the same silky appearance, but isolated and scattered in the grain (that is, not repeated at regular intervals like in curly maple) and not extending across the grain very far, often having the appearance of a short hook or bear claw. I've only seen this in spruce. I think it is caused by proximity of the cut to small knots.

(3) a broad (as large as 12 inches to 2 feet in scale) area of silkiness that seems to make large areas of the wood glow. I've seen this in beech and mahogany, and to a limited extent in spruce and other straight-grained softwoods. Usually larger scale in beech. I'm not sure if this has a name. Silk seems appropriate but I'm not sure if that is what luthiers mean when they say silk. I suspect it is caused by proximity of quartersawn cut to the axis of a very large branch.

I've worked extensively with woods for 50 years, and have taken many trees from standing livestock to cabinetwork, but have only built one musical instrument with a soundboard (a harpsichord). So I'm only a wannabe luthier and not familiar with the terms you guys use. Although I did work for Scott O'dell at the Smithsonian in musical instrument restoration for 4 years, so I'm not completely unfamiliar with some aspects of luthiery.

From observation, I think (1a), (1b), and possibly (3) are caused by compressive stress put on one side of the tree as it is bent or distorted during life, commonly by leaning, or beneath the increasing weight of a growing branch. Almost like a carpet that gets bunched up when one end of it is pushed along the floor.

Maybe some of you guys can straighten me out on the terminology you use in luthiery to describe figure in woods?

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 4:19:01

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

A picture would be worth a thousand words here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 4:34:17

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

A picture would be worth a thousand words here.

I'll try and get a photo at an angle that will show what I mean. Watch this space . . .

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 8:25:03

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

and may I ask for even more photos not just from the top?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 8:32:22

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

my castillo has silk....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 11:04:45

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

I have silky soft hair or so I'm told.

Are you talking about what some call silk that shows up as tiny short cross grain thread like incident in the wood? Doubtful if the 'silk' grain has any intrinsic stiffening value. You see that because of the cut of the wood. Not all trees have it. Sometimes if you sand perpendicular to the grain on a top with fine paper you can simulate the silk look.

Tops are tops are tops. Some old guitars have tops chosen because the wood had the right weight and flexibility. Silk or no silk.

Lots of wood dealers and makers play up the silk look because it is beautiful. It makes looking into the transparency of the first few layers of the wood under finish more complex with pattern.

Make the guitar with natures flashing wood and let God ( si existe) make the sale.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 13:22:07

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Lots of wood dealers and makers play up the silk look because it is beautiful. It makes looking into the transparency of the first few layers of the wood under finish more complex with pattern.

Make the guitar with natures flashing wood and let God ( si existe) make the sale.

The silk is proof that the wood is perfectly quartered. Are you implying that perfectly quartered wood is irrelevant to the sound of the guitar?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 15:25:33

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Are you implying that perfectly quartered wood is irrelevant to the sound of the guitar?

The actual name of that silky cross grain incident is Medullary Ray.

I'm not implying anything. I'm stating that perfect quartered tops are not irrelevant, but certainly over hyped commercially. You can make great guitars with wood that is not perfectly quartered. Sometimes medullary rays show and sometimes they don't.

I think the question was does the existence of medullary ray increase the stiffness. The increase in stiffness is not due to the silk or M.R. it is due to the tree, its individual properties and the way it was cut. The silky appearance of the grain is an indicator of a good cut, but not that the top is good or not good for a guitar.

A poor top can still exhibit medullary ray in the layers if the top, but that does not mean the wood is the right density or weight to make a good guitar. A less desirable tree for making a guitar has the same biological properties and cellular structure as a tree that is very desirable for a top. You can cut a good guitar tree and one and not so good. They can both exhibit the silk grain incidental signs, but which one would you choose to make a top? The one which satisfied your criteria for density, cross grain stiffness and weight or the one which showed better medullary ray?

If given the choice between a top that does not display strong medullary raying that had a better feeling to make a guitar with vs. one that has prominent medullary rays, but is ultra dense and too glassy sounding, I would pick the better one for making a guitar.

Let's be honest and not hype what makes a good top for a guitar and what makes an attractive top. Or let's focus on what counts and that is how you handle and thin a top according to its individual properties. Medullary rays are a part of the wood structure, but the tree does put medullary rays in the structure just to show you its a good top to build with.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 18:34:34

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

The silk is proof that the wood is perfectly quartered.

So, John:
Forgive my ignorance. Is it correct to say that a properly quarter sawn top is more likely to intersect Medullary Rays? And that intersection is what appears as silk?

It sounds to me like the silk in spruce is an entirely different phenomenon from curlyness in maple and other hardwoods. Is that right? Even though the iridescent (for lack of a better word) effect looks the same . . . ?

quote:

Lots of wood dealers and makers play up the silk look because it is beautiful.

Actually, the silky top doesn't particularly ring my chimes. For visual beauty, it just can't compete with extreme figure like tightly curly or burl hardwoods . On the other hand, it is tonal beauty that is important in the top. . .

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 19:33:31

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

A picture would be worth a thousand words here.

It is really hard to photograph the silk on the guitar without glare. Here is an attempt:

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:05:48

a_arnold

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[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 18 2010 20:07:35

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:06:53

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

The silk is proof that the wood is perfectly quartered. Are you implying that perfectly quartered wood is irrelevant to the sound of the guitar?

______________

I also appreciate the Socratic approach to discussing this. :)

I could make it into a syllogism:

Medullary rays are present in some good guitar wood.
Quarter sawn lumber produces medullary rays.

Thus all good guitar tops will be French Polished......

______

I think that is a quasi syllogism, not quite right...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:08:48

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to beno)

quote:

and may I ask for even more photos not just from the top?

Palo Escrito back (sorry abt that previous post -- upload failed):

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:09:35

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

It is really hard to photograph the silk on the guitar without glare. Here is an attempt:

See if your camera has settings for 'still life'- 'portrait' or 'landscape' it might be pressing a button on top of the camera. Set it to still life and try it. Some camera have little symbols which indicate which of those views the camera is set on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:12:14

a_arnold

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Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

A picture would be worth a thousand words here.

Curly (silky?) maple on harpsichord I built (sorry about the glare):

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:12:36

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

A picture would be worth a thousand words here.

Second attempt at curly maple harpsichord:

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:13:40

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

A picture would be worth a thousand words here.

Silky beech (my kitchen table, also home-made). Sorry about the food crumbs. They are for scale.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:16:27

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

A picture would be worth a thousand words here.

Silky mahogany tilt-top table top:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:19:54

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

Nice harpsichord, can you show more of it? I want to see that more than medullary rays.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:24:12

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I could make it into a syllogism

Hmm. My fav syllogism:

Major premise: One man can dig a post hole in one minute.
Minor premise: 60 men can complete a job 60 times as fast as one man.
Conclusion: 60 men can dig a post hole in one second.

Logic is a wonderful thing . . .

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:27:20

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Nice harpsichord, can you show more of it? I want to see that more than medullary rays.....

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:31:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

Is that harpsichord based on any particular historical instrument? Very cool. I've wanted to build one, but I don't have the time or space.

I do love the harpsichord however.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2010 20:44:41

Anders Eliasson

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RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

To me, what you call silking is bearclawing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2010 0:47:11

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to a_arnold)

What is seen in the photo of the guitar belonging to a_arnold is bearclaw, maschiato, hazel-fichte. This is like curly maple and gives a structure to the spruce which is not desirable. We search desperately for tops with no run-out and this is extreme, localized runout. In my experience the bearclaw tops I have handled have been less stiff in general. Romanillos in one of those guitar gourmet videos says that bearclaw indicates a well-cut piece of wood but that is untrue. What indicates a quartersawn piece is medular rays or silking as has already been mentioned. Quartersawing and the consequent silking is very desirable for most of us. Now, having said all that, bearclaw can make a beautiful guitar and sadly sometimes that is what the client wants.

John Ray
Granada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2010 4:57:23

a_arnold

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Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: The effect of "silk" o... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Is that harpsichord based on any particular historical instrument?

Yes, and I have the info somewhere. If I can find it I will post here.

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2010 6:24:11