picado fingering question

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HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

picado fingering question

hey guys..
just checking.. I know picado is always alternating, but if it's after a hammer on or slide, can the same finger be used on another string??

eg
-----------
-----------
1h2----0-
------0----
------------
------------

so index on the first note, then hammer on the 2, then index on the D string and ring finger on the G string.

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 5:35:05

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to HolyEvil)

I think you're dragging it or using the index finger twice which is not recommended or not allowed .
from my experience and after seeing your example I think no you can't do that
do it like :
index on the first note, then hammer on the 2, then *middle* on the D string and *ring or index* finger on the G string.
or
index on the first note, then hammer on the 2, then *thumb* on the D string and *ring or index or middle* finger on the G string.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 5:52:14

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to HolyEvil)

i would start with M. then i on the g string then m on the third.

slurs during picados are really tricky for me because they interrupt the flow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 9:32:36

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to HolyEvil)

this is an interesting point

The principle of picado is alternation, and every one has to learn this, at least at the beginning.

But the practise is not always so, particularly where slurs are concerned, as in the case of your question.

I have seen Gerardo Nuñez, Tomatito, Pepe Habichuela and Enrique de Melchor all play a note with a finger, play a slur and then repeat that same finger to play the next note, as in your question example.

There are examples on all their Encuentro's. Check Tomatito on the last phrase of the intro to the Soleá Por Bulería. Or Gerardo on the end of the Tangos falseta in the picado section. Or Pepe Habichuela in Soleá Por Bulerías or Alegrías.

I have also been told (by a high level guitarist who has spent years studying his technique) that Paco de Lucía plays this way, in order to maintain the rhythm of alternating fingers on/off beat.

I don't know why noone ever seems to mention these examples, as there are so many they almost seem the rule.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 13:25:46

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to HolyEvil)

Once you're good enough to know when you can drag the finger, then you can drag the finger. Before that you CAN'T! I tell my students it's like a sprinter hopping on one foot because it's closer to the ground. You lose the dynamics between the fingers by holding them still in that moment.

In this case I wouldn't. If there were a melody just before this which would require me to start this melody with the i finger I might drag so that I could start with the m finger instead, but generally I never would.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 13:32:19

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Once you're good enough to know when you can drag the finger, then you can drag the finger.

How do you know when you're good enough?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 13:48:46

minordjango

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

principle of picado is alternation,

and scott tennant on his pumping nylon vid , he has some speed building exercises and also used the repetitive finger ................so confusing.!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 14:19:12

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to minordjango)

quote:

so confusing

not really, the principle is still alternation, but if you are playing 4 notes per beat starting with m on the beat it has a certain rhythmic stability to it.

if you want to play note-slur-note-note (say, at the beginning of a run), then if you alternate strictly you will play m-slur-i-m and end up with i on the (next) beat and lose that rhythmic stability (i know the object of a lot of picado technique training is to get i and m to be of equal strenth power and sound, but in reality finger length and nail shape differences make this almost impossible).

if you played each note with right hand fingers (no slur) you would play m-i-m-i and have m on the (next) beat, and i would have played the slurred note.

so in effect if you play m-slur-m-i the right hand fingers "alternate" without actually contacting the string on the note you played with the left hand slur, m plays again on the next beat and then you keep strict alternation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 14:52:50

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

i would start with M. then i on the g string then m on the third.

slurs during picados are really tricky for me because they interrupt the flow.

hey mate, it's actually part of a run and it has to start with i on the note I mentioned, if not the previous 10 notes will have alot of m on the lower and i in the higher string.. :(

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 15:16:27

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to HolyEvil)

check it out....

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=136609&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 15:41:25

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

How do you know when you're good enough?

He's asking whether it's okay, so he can't!

Seriously, when you're able to actively control whether you do it or not without confusion. If you don't alternate, it should be because you don't want to, not because you can't.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 22:20:14

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to John O.)

as Leo mentioned that's classic start with M for the hammer- on leaving your I nice and ready for the next note..

soon it will all start to make sence to you ...theres certain runs and things that work better starting with M...and your example its perfect...usualy when ascending its eazyer to lead with I...so because u are ascending right after the hammer- on...you wanna land in a way that your I is ready to begin...if you drag the pause and the volume between notes will not always be perfectly even

and i guess u could drag it but all this technique was written for a reason and it was thought out to make your life eazyer in the long run, there is sence behind everything...even if it seems unecesarely harder atm ...it is the eazyest possible way to get there in the long run

so when u practice picado make sure u practice starting with M too

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 22:41:52

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to Florian)

quote:

it is the eazyest possible way to get there in the long run

Cool pun

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2010 23:32:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

i would start with M. then i on the g string then m on the third.

slurs during picados are really tricky for me because they interrupt the flow.

hey mate, it's actually part of a run and it has to start with i on the note I mentioned, if not the previous 10 notes will have alot of m on the lower and i in the higher string.. :(

I was gonna ask what came before. In that case YES you should "repeat i" finger so it all works out nice. Also imagine that you actually executed the slur with picado...you would necessarily use m finger and you can see the rest works out the same, nothing changes. So also try it without the slur.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2010 10:00:10

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I was gonna ask what came before. In that case YES you should "repeat i" finger so it all works out nice. Also imagine that you actually executed the slur with picado...you would necessarily use m finger and you can see the rest works out the same, nothing changes. So also try it without the slur.

Ricardo

thanks ricardo! I actually practiced both ways now and now both repeating 'i' and not repeating the 'i' feels natural.. when I play I realise that sometimes i use the repeating, sometimes without the repeating 'i' without me conciously thinking about it. Is this a good thing or should i always concentrated on which finger I want to use?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2010 16:56:45

M.S.A.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2010 10:48:42

M.S.A.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2010 11:17:14

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: picado fingering question (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

I have also been told (by a high level guitarist who has spent years studying his technique) that Paco de Lucía plays this way, in order to maintain the rhythm of alternating fingers on/off beat.

I wonder who it was. He was right. I've seen Paco doing the same thing. If he has spent years studying Paco's technique his explanation why must be spot-on as well.

But your explanation makes more sense to me.

quote:

this is not instead of strict alternation, this is as well as/part of strict alternation, as the same finger does not play two consecutive notes, but two notes separated by another note played ligado

quote:

so in effect if you play m-slur-m-i the right hand fingers "alternate" without actually contacting the string on the note you played with the left hand slur, m plays again on the next beat and then you keep strict alternation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 24 2022 22:00:23