RE: Hey let's all just replicate Paco's style. Or not

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yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)

quote:

Compare Vicente's best work to any classical composer. Go listen to Bach's worst fugue ever. Yes, that's why Vicente gets the "Flashes of talent" award

You can't compare a flamenco guitarist and a classical composer, thats just two different things, two different types of music.
And that fugue is maybe "brilliant" composed, but you cannot play that on a guitar.
that's why you cant compare those two, vicente is a flamenco guitarist.

In my opinion I dont think you ever will be "better" then paco, but that doesnt mean I try to "belittle" your ambitions, like flybynigth suggested.
You are doing something that you like all the day and your fanatic and that's great, and you should keep on doing that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 10:34:03

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)

quote:

I totally agree. You see, comparing yourself to others is actually just a trick; it's a tool to reach deeply into yourself and find YOUR own true potential.

But if you start with the conception "person X is way better than I will ever be", then if you never make it is far as you wished you could go, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Composition. Composition. Composition. I cannot say it enough! Let's be dead honest: there is no living flamenco artist who is a truly excellent composer.

You can take the musical ideas of Bach and even a half assed player can play them on a half assed instrument, and they will still sound amazing. Why? Because they are incredibly well crafted ideas.

Why can Vicente mop the floors with Nunez? Cause for all of Nunez' technique, the dude needs to revisit Composition 101. Vicente ain't exactly an all time great in the musical idea creation department, but he knows what a melody is, and shows flashes of compositional talent. And that has been enough to take him to a higher level than any other flamenco guitarist, probably even Paco.

Those who would be musicians, heed this: great composition beats great technique any day of the week.

But don't use that as an excuse to not study technique.

I agree with you 100%, and not just on the above quote but almost on everything you have said on this thread.
Paco has set a level when it comes to Technic, that I wish all of us to one day meet and surpass and that is something that can be done. Meaning faster picado etc... However that is not what makes Paco amazing, what makes him amazing are his compositions, and that is something that cannot be gauged, when comparing oneself to Paco, because that is something that is subjective.

When I listen To Tomatito, Manolo or Vicente I don't hear Paco in their playing nor do I believe that they are trying to replicate Paco's style.

Rain

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 10:40:01

guitarristamadrid

Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 27 2010

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Rain)

quote:

what makes him amazing are his compositions,

Finally someone notices this. While Paco may not be on the level of Bach, he has worked very hard on composition (and talks about this himself) and that is probably the greatest contribution he has made to flamenco. While many people these days are reaching his scale speed etc basically no one is composing stuff as solid as him. Maybe Vicente was going towards that back in DMCAI, but it seems like he's just chillin these days.

Tomatito, Manolo, Vicente are pretty distinct from Paco because they are more like his contemporaries. I am more worried about the players now who are in their 20s and 30s, that's what I was thinking of when I wrote my earlier comments.

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Sometimes music is all you got in this world. Why do I create music? Because there was a time when I had nothing, and music kept me alive.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 10:46:33

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Rain)

quote:

Paco has set a level when it comes to Technic, that I wish all of us to one day meet and surpass

I'm gonna start doing that right now myself, Rain!

Wow...I can't believe that one day I will be a more famous Flamenco guitarist than PdL!

F*ck technique...f*ck talent...

BELIEF in yourself is all that matters IMO.

You will be much better than Paco, Tomatito, Gerardo, Vicente..etc..etc.. too!

We ALL will...just BELIEVE!..OK?

Thanks!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 10:58:59

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

quote:

You can't compare a flamenco guitarist and a classical composer, thats just two different things, two different types of music.
And that fugue is maybe "brilliant" composed, but you cannot play that on a guitar.
that's why you cant compare those two, vicente is a flamenco guitarist.

Yes that Fugue can be played on the guitar.

quote:

In my opinion I dont think you ever will be "better" then paco, but that doesnt mean I try to "belittle" your ambitions, like flybynigth suggested.

Yohan, you need to stop projecting and focus on yourself mate.

If being better than Paco means better technic: quicker picados etc... yes that is something that can be gauged, again creativity is something that is subjective.

Jimi Hendrix, my favorite electric guitarist was the sloppiest player with a poor technic, almost ever electric guitarist on the radio today has a better technic and knowledge of harmony than he sid, yet JIMI HENDRIX in my opinion is GOD.

Technic and creativity, one can be obtained the other NOT!!!

Peace,
Rain

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 10:59:13

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Wow...I can't believe that one day I will be a more famous Flamenco guitarist than PdL!

Whose talking about being more famous here Ron, and its obvious to me from your comment above and from other comments on other threads that you don't believe that you have much talent to obtain any level of playing. Thats fine, but do not keep on telling people that they are as limited in their talent as you are

Rain

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:03:44

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Rain)

quote:

Thats fine, but do not keep on telling people that they are as limited in their talent as you are

Any chance you can you upload your best piece so we can all see how far you've got to date?

Or would you rather remain the best judge of that in your bedroom?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:06:49

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

this whole thread started not bad, but later went to a totally absurd and sick path.

people are talking about Vicente, Gerardo, etc. as if they totally lack compositional skills.

i want to see one of you guys composing something like El Mandaito and PLAY it that way or something like Jucal and PLAY it that way.

then we can talk like this, but till then, please go back to practice - both technique and composition.

and also it wouldn't be bad to practice some sort of minimum respect to other musicians, which IS their composition if you are a musician.

this thread became a sick egomaniac thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:21:03

yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

@rain and evan
You can't compare bach and paco, its just two different things.
Bach lived more 300 years ago and was a classical composer! not a flamenco guitarist!

he couldn't compose a buleria with flamenco feel and soul. But of course he composed brilliant classical music, which in his time was progressive, just like paco was.
We are talking about composing flamenco for guitar, aren't we?

@arash
I totally agree with you

show some respect and stop complaining, definitely when you're not that good yourself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:21:46

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

guys you shouldn't mix or even compare between flamenco and classic Music
anyway im not going to add anything to this thread
my vote will go to Arash because we share the same attitude .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:29:09

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

I will make a video tomorrow. It will be a video.

I will make it tomorrow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:39:42

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

quote:

I will make a video tomorrow. It will be a video.
I will make it tomorrow.

haahahahahaha very nice one

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:42:14

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

I will make a video tomorrow. It will be a video.

I will make it tomorrow.

But Todd will you be in the video or will you just make it? The one you will make tomorrow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:42:22

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

quote:

people are talking about Vicente, Gerardo, etc. as if they totally lack compositional skills.

Its funny that people from the classical side state something like that. ^^ Coz they are mainly warming up dusty material instead of renewing their (well not really their) art very rapidly as flamenco does.

I saw modern classic compositions but they were abstract like the art of the famous sculptors who **** in a room and tell you thats art. Yeah..maybe art but not enjoyable art. Flamenco is very different in renewing itself. In a much more enjoyable way I would say. With some exceptions of course.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:42:49

flybynight

Posts: 121
Joined: Aug. 14 2009

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

quote:

this whole thread started not bad, but later went to a totally absurd and sick path.

Hang on.. nothing wrong with a bit of passion. I bet some gitanos would be laughing at our previously restrained, politically correct, 'sensitive' threads, showing respect for all posters, qualifying all mild judgement calls etc

I have some lovel spanish living 3m above my head, and if they were involved in this discussion, you would be able them from whereever you live. In the world.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:44:21

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

abstract like the art of the famous sculptors who **** in a room and tell you thats art.

You just don't get it, do you?.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:45:34

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to yohan)

comparing flamencos with classical music?

sorry but this is the joke of the year.

flamenco is not only about harmony and notes, etc.

main part is the feel and how you play the guitar.

hell, flamenco guitar is even like a percussion instrument combined with guitar.

and you can play a SINGLE note in flamenco guitar which will kick you to moon.

play the same note on a piano or any other instrument, and it will leave you cold.

this is the beginning of El Panuelo.
some simple notes.

BUT HOW IS IT PLAYED ?

http://rapidshare.com/files/378155199/paco.mp3.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:45:43

yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Elie)

quote:

my vote will go to Arash because we share the same attitude

me too, he always say what I think but then better

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:53:08

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Any chance you can you upload your best piece so we can all see how far you've got to date?

Or would you rather remain the best judge of that in your bedroom?

I never said I can or have composed a piece in the flamenco style or in any other style Ron. And if I did compose something I would not have no problem judging if it is good or not in my own bedroom, I think I have a good ear for what is good or not subjectively.

I'll make it really clear where I stand on the topic of this thread:
Paco's level of playing(Technic) is attainable. Being the creative Paco, the composer Paco, cannot unless you want to be a mime that is and write another La Barrossa and have all the that is familiar with the piece sy Hey that sounds like La Barrossa.
Can one write a piece that becomes more well known and just as celebrated, yes.
20 years ago Albeniz's Leyenda was THE guitar piece every classical guitarist was talking about playing today it is Domeniconi's Koyunbaba.

What makes Paco truly amazing is his MUSIC, his COMPOSITIONS, his creativity, much more so then his technical skills. That is something that would be impossible to judge on a objective level, since what is good is subjective.

Ron, the next contest that is on this forum i will enter so that you Ron can enter my bedroom

Oh by the way has anyone here on this forum ever heard of Raphael Rabello, he's a brazillian guitarist that in my opinion is twice the guitarist that Paco is. Not flamenco, but he does use flamenco technics. Paco even said that Raphael was the greatest guitarist on the planet----Check out the album Todod Os Tons, Paco de Lucia plays on the first track Samba Do Avaio.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 11:53:26

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Doitsujin)

you can even play tapado in compas (no notes at all

, so absolutely NO composition, just a muted guitar) , with a flamenco guitar and it will still sound good if you do it good

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:04:35

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Rain)

Well, hell there Rain amigo..

I've never actually been that intense about it all, but just like strumming a few chords etc on a Flamenco guitar and trying working out a few falsetas here and there.

It really gives you a much better appreciation of the seriously good players and makes listening to their stuff much more enjoyable IMO.

That's it for me.

I'm not giving myself a heart attack, nervous breakdown or hernia over it!

(I've got other stuff I like doing too)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:13:48

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Arash)

I believe guitarrista's Bach example was there to show us compositional genius and not put up as a comparison to flamenco. A fugue is a very difficult form to compose in, it has its own form and rules just like say a Bulerias does. Every composition student studies Bach, in the same way flamenco guitarist studies the music of Paco or Nino Ricardo.

quote:

comparing flamencos with classical music?

sorry but this is the joke of the year.

Why is that the joke of the year, yes the sounds are different, a child could tell you that, but music is music is it not?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:13:56

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I've never actually been that intense about it all, but just like strumming a few chords etc on a Flamenco guitar and trying working out a few falsetas here and there.

And thats fine Ron, but others like guitaritamadrid , Flo and Jason, and many others here on this forum are that intense about it and should be pushed to excel not have comments like you will never be that good be tossed at them.

I will definitely enter the next contest you have going on this forum, and I look forward to it.

Rain

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:22:31

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Rain)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rain
I will definitely enter the next contest you have going on this forum, and I look forward to it.

But will you make a video tomorrow?

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:24:41

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I'm not giving myself a heart attack, nervous breakdown or hernia over it!

It's best to be realistic about what you can accomplish and it's better not to share your daydreams in public as if they could ever be achieved. Evan, I'm not trying to talk you out of trying to achieve your dreams, but it is best to avoid the outcomes Ron mentioned in the quote above.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:29:07

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to XXX)

Deniz, you are not that funny mate.
Why don't you and I make a video Deniz, you pick the piece and say in a month we upload and let people here judge whose playing is funnier?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:29:26

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Rain)

Well i dont make jokes in my playing, so im sure you'll get the fun points!
To quote Ron... "I think someones taking the p***

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:33:45

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to guitarristamadrid)

quote:

Why can Vicente mop the floors with Nunez? Cause for all of Nunez' technique, the dude needs to revisit Composition 101. Vicente ain't exactly an all time great in the musical idea creation department, but he knows what a melody is, and shows flashes of compositional talent. And that has been enough to take him to a higher level than any other flamenco guitarist, probably even Paco.

quote:

The standard of flamenco composition is low.

Guitarristamadrid, reading this and listening to your compositions on Myspace has made me decide to not take part in this thread. Sorry, but I can't take your views on flamenco seriously. I gotta give it to you though for getting all these people on the thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:36:32

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to XXX)

Deniz, you are not that funny mate.
Why don't you and I make a video Deniz, you pick the piece and say in a month we upload and let people here judge whose playing is funnier?

Well then take up my challenge Deniz, how does Guajiras de Lucia sound I always wanted learn that piece and you would be giving me the reason to finally sit down and learn it and you could see me upload something not tomorrow but in a month.
Or we can play any other piece that you suggest.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:41:18

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Hey let's all just replicate Pac... (in reply to Rain)

quote:

Well then take up my challenge Deniz, how does Guajiras de Lucia sound I always wanted learn that piece and you would be giving me the reason to finally sit down and learn it and you could see me upload something not tomorrow but in a month.
Or we can play any other piece that you suggest.

I wanna hear it!!! Yay!

Come on Deniz, take Rain up on the challenge!!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2010 12:58:06