Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
I saw a documentary yesterday about bullfighting, and its cruel! It's imo horrible and cruel and I think it should be forbidden, however its a big part of the Spanish culture(and Andalusia) , what's your opinion about that? Anyone ever seen a bullfight?
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
Arte puro. If you have never seen one, you have no right to criticize what you don´t understand. Morante , El Juli or Manzanares with a good toro are magical.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
As far as I know, most bull calves are just shot at birth anyway, since they are useless to farmers.
One option is for everyone to become vegetarians and then there will be no cattle, sheep, pigs or poultry anywhere. (Unless someone wants to keep them for pets)
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
As you can see from the links Arash posted we have done this topic extensively!
I can see where you are coming from, and I admit I could not attend a live bull fight. However I did watch one on television, together with some people who knew what it was about and how it worked. They were able to explain the rules to me, and from a cultural point of view I found it fascinating.
I bet lots of cultures have customs that we might find a bit gross!
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
Saturday I took my aspiring-jokey daughter (10y) to the Santa Anita racetrack, where Seabiscuit became a legend, Giacomo (sic) was raised to upset the Kentucky Derby and it is now Zenyatta’s home.
A friendly jockey sat with us and begged my girl to place her aspirations elsewhere, recounting stories of death and horrible injuries of those chasing the whims of fortune over 4 fast furlongs.
The naturally nervous thoroughbreds are pharmaceutically stirred to the edge of nervous breakdowns to enhance their performance.
Yet the most horrifying site is that of the zombie-like gamblers quietly depleting their welfare-checks on a “win” or “placed” which will most often betray them.
There are deep wrinkles hidden under the humoring paint covering all clowns’ faces.
From hunting to boxing, bullfighting or horse races, we have inherited barbarian traditions of violence and cruelty to entertain us. And yet again, Sports and Games hinge on “hostility” to provide entertainment, mimicking battlefield strategies or dueling confrontations, where the defeat of one is the victory of the other.
La Corrida is a spectacular show of traditions and culture, just like fox-hunting is. Both are nearing their last show, as we find comfort in saving a bull, no matter how many hundreds of now jobless men will have to tell their families they lost their income.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
(sorry I didn't use the search function before making this topic.) I see a lot of people are against bullfighting/torturing bulls. But you guys think it should be forbidden?
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
I dont like bullfighting at all, but since I live in Andalucia, I try not to get involved. If someone really tries to convince me, I just shut up and give that person my stupid foreigner smile.
Bullfighting is to much against my way of being and my respect of the animals, so I would prefer that it didn´t exist.
The thing I like the least about it all is that its defended by saying that its culture. Culture is just a word. It doesnt mean that something is good. Its culture in some African countrys to cut off the clitoris on small girls. So should it be considered something good just because its culture?
The whole bullfighting issue shows how Spaniards look at animals. Animals have no rights, they are often treated very cruely and the respect towards animals is VERY low. I personally dont like abuse of animals (or human beings) Nor do I like the use of animals to entertain human beings. Leave the animals in peace or learn to live with them and respect them. They are fantastic creatures.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
One option is for everyone to become vegetarians and then there will be no cattle, sheep, pigs or poultry anywhere. (Unless someone wants to keep them for pets)
What are you actually trying to say this. That Cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry only exist because we eat them? Thats truly absurd Ron and the worst defense for eating meat that I´ve ever read.
The animals would be here if we werent here and they would most probably be happyer animals. "modern" animals like the ones you talk about are animals which have been created by human beings, because we find that we have the right to genetically manipulate whatever there is on planet earth. The result is animals which are misshapen. I´m 200% shure that the cattles you talk about would be happyer with udders that doesnt hurt and affects them so that they can hardly walk. I´m 200% sure that the poultry you talk about would be happyer if they didnt have to lay an egg every day. In their natural version they only lay eggs when its the period of making little chickens.
So why talk about this in a bullfighting thread.. I dont know, you started, but maybe I see a line, its all about Human beings thinking they have a right to treat animals without respect. And the only reason they think thay have that right is because they are human being and thus thay can do whatever they feel to the rest of mother earth. This I dont like. Being bullfighting or the way we treat animals that are meant to be eaten.
And no, I´m not a vegetarian, but I eat very little meat and in my life I will NEVER go to a bullfighting or anything similar.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
What are you actually trying to say this. That Cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry only exist because we eat them?
Anders, I'm not trying to say it, I actually AM saying just that.
quote:
The animals would be here if we werent here and they would most probably be happyer animals.
I've heard heaps of arguments from people saying that the world would be a far better place without Humans.
This is just tree-hugging mystical-Gaia romanticism IMO and a view held mainly by loopy green cults. (again IMO).
I stand by what I say.
In the world as it is (but with vegetarian humans), there are not going to be wild cattle, pigs and sheep freely roaming the countryside, hills and forests of our lands in a beautiful green paradise.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to Ron.M)
So what´s your problem with these mystical-Gaia cults and tree huggers? Do they bother you? Do they make your world a worse one? To me it looks like you´re not able to see the world from another view than what your logoanalyst squarehead concrete brain allows you to do. When did you hug a tree the last time? Did you feel that it was alive? did you respect and feel overwhelmed by the fact that it might be 500 - 1000 years old? Or was it just another stupid tree that the human beings, creature above all other creatures on earth, was alowed to cut down, burn or do whatever he/she feel like. Is a bit of romantism not something positive or do you prefer to just be squareheaded? Are you afraid of mysticals or Gaia freaks? You shouldn´t be so. They are not going to hurt you. You might even find that they can help open you visions. I write they, because I´m a bit squareheaded myself, but I´m glad that there are people with a more tree-hugging mystical-Gaia romanticist vision of the world that takes my concrete brain and shakes it a bit sometimes. I might even one day be able to learn some more from them. I can now hug a tree without feeling ashamed. Its a good feeling to hug a tree, grow an organic carrot and pet a pig instead of eating or at least before eating it. Pigs are nice animals especially when running around. The ones which you bacon eating fellows keep locked into small fences all their life, where they cant move and have no contact with their little creatures, make me feel ashamed of being a human being. To me Bullfighting is totally the same story. Getting fat by mistreating pigs and entertained by mistreating a Bull thats REALLY low. The human race consider itself to be oohhh so wise. So why cant we use our inteligence and learn to live without mistreating and abusing the rest of the living world?
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
Ron,
What I read in your posts is just fear. Even when hidden behind cynical comments.
Dont be afraid, The Gaya mystical romanticist tree huggers are not going to steel your soul or make you give away your televisions to their Guru. They are not like that anymore. Now they are all nice. Even Geldorf, Bono, Bagwhan and the rest are just nice people thinking about the best for you. Dont be afraid.
The idea of wiping out the whole human race is also just a result of your fear. Dont be afraid, it wont be nescessary to kill anyone or to commit suicide. The Hollistic Gaia freaks are not like that anymore. Be confident and you might learn to hug a tree or pet a piggy. Its very rich. Dont be afraid.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
Dont be afraid, The Gaya mystical romanticist tree huggers are not going to steel your soul or make you give away your televisions to their Guru. They are not like that anymore. Now they are all nice.
Well Anders,
I can't honestly say with my hand on my heart that I live in fear...
Although the Animal Rights activists are pretty scary people!
(Sending letter-bombs through the post etc)
Also here's a clip from the Greenpeace site..
"If you're one of those who have spent their lives undermining progressive climate legislation, bankrolling junk science, fueling spurious debates around false solutions, and cattle-prodding democratically-elected governments into submission, then hear this: We know who you are. We know where you live. We know where you work. And we be many, but you be few.”
Now, that's pretty much NOT "peace and love" language IMO
In fact even George W Bush's statement was much more friendly...
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Anyway, no sweat amigo, I'll still find the time to chuck a stone in the North Sea for you when I'm walking down by the shore.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: yohan
btw I'm a vegetarian, that's also something that don't fit in Andalusia too, isnt it?
i guess this is considered to be totally gay in gitano community i wouldn't tell them anything about that. just learn the falsetas and if you are asked : just smile like Anders
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: yohan btw I'm a vegetarian, that's also something that don't fit in Andalusia too, isnt it?
Oh I dont know my Harold is a vegetarian and people are curious but our local bars dont question it and always make a veggie tapa especially for him. Jokes are made but in general he is totally respected for his personal life choices. For instance he sees no difference between the mass industrial breeding and killing of pigs and the bullfight. He does not object to what other people do, just makes and lives by his own choices.
One day eating a picnic in the countryside one Gitano family had brought along a massive, smelly home smoked fish. Some-one said oh Harold wont eat that and the father said " But this is lettuce" Harold laughed and said he had never seen lettuce that looked so much like a fish and they said " It's lettuce from Pakistan".
Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to yohan)
The best part of a bull fight is when the matador turns his back on the bull and the bull throws him by the horns.
Ive seen 1 live bull fight and its the most I could handle. Its a barbaric sport and incredibly cruel and unfair. Give the bull enough to eat and dont send him out half dead, give him a fair chance, then see what happens. Lets see how macho and elegant the matador really is with a full size, healthy, angry bull charging at him.
I agree 100% with Anders that culture or tradition does not imply right or acceptable. I eat meat and fish, but I dont beat my dog or swing my cat around by the tail just for kicks.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to Kate)
quote:
For instance he sees no difference between the mass industrial breeding and killing of pigs and the bullfight.
Totally agree too. In fact the bulls are way better treated than any other livestock in Spain up untill the bullfight. @victor - its not supposed to be a fair fight...the idea is that the bull dies and the village eat it. Its origin is ritualised slaughter to provide meat in fiestas etc. Secondly, I dont what kind of bull you saw but they are anything but docile and underfed here..half a tonne of testosterone runn ing you is the norm here.
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to Arash)
Hi,
these discussions are interesting. One point that I didn't see is that in out technological society new chemicals are tested on animals. Such as lethal dose 50 testing. This is were a group of animals is exposed to the new chemical by diffent routes such as ingestion, inhalation, injection. The amount of chemical necessary to kill 50 % is then used as a guidance for safety levels for humans. There is no way around it, that it is cruel to an extreme. In the rules they try to reduce and replace these tests where possible but at the moment there is no complete alternative. If the animals are not tested then it is humans.
In Oxford (here in the UK) they have built a new animal research facility. And you can see protests in the city centre. There was even a counter protest movement set up to support the testing for its role in understanding human diseases.
Some of this testing is not easily accessible, i.e. it is not easy to know what is happening. And for those people who have concern it can leave them feeling powerless and I thinkn we see some extreme reactions amongst many non extreme.
I really don't have answers to this. Personnally I avoid being involved in any of this research. And I don't want to see any cruelty. Emotions are a mammalian characteristic rather than human only. At the same time you can't eliminate the inferstructure of our society, as far as I know, (some of) the testing is inherent.
How is this relevant? The attitude which represents the majority in the UK I think is utilitarian i.e. animals are used to our benefit (food, medicine) cruely or otherwise. But unnecessary cruelty is not tollerated such as fox hunting. Since these things happen I couldn't make comments about bullfighting. It is not something I have any experience of.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to Alatriste)
Hello, Alatriste,
Just curious, is that your real name, or did you take it from Arturo Perez-Reverte's novels about the 17th century hero-swordsman Captain Diego Alatriste?
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
RE: What's your opinion about bullfi... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Hello, Alatriste,
Just curious, is that your real name, or did you take it from Arturo Perez-Reverte's novels about the 17th century hero-swordsman Captain Diego Alatriste?
Cheers,
Bill
Hmmmm... Very generous of you to assume that possibility. I would have simply assumed he had never read any of the books and was a Viggo Mortenson fan.
As for bullfighting, cruelty is something very human. Even the proponents of humane treatment of animals will find some outlet for this part of our nature.
No fan of the corrida like to see the bull made to suffer "unduly" yet such distinctions often aren't made when humans are cruel to their own kind.
We commit many atrocities and it will be some time before we evolve past some of our more psychotic traits. As a species, most of what we do is "against" nature. Which is the greater sin? To kill a bull or kill a man? If killing bulls is cathartic and prevents us from killing each other, isn't that good? Or are you extreme enough to suggest that killing each other is better and possibly that we may deserve it?
I don't know.
All I do know is that there are starving children and wars and women sold into slavery every day and all kinds of evil stuff going on and yet some people would choose to change the world by protecting farm animals. I think that's unconscionable.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread