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Flame Wars
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 RE: Flame Wars (in reply to steenland)
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Playing fast picado with a pick is much easier than with im. Consider the simplicity of the back and forth motion with the horribly complex movement of the two fingers, their interplay with each other and the strings. Of course if you're invested with the pick and unwilling to change, you can either make the choice to acknowledge to others the limitations of your technique (there being benefits, as well, of course!), or can go psycho on anyone who fails to worship you! The person in question is a true piece of work, who can be kind and generous with his time, and encouraging, or possessed of an almost diabolical rage and need to prove himself. He is truly not missed here for the destructive effects of his personality.
Simon, I think most pro musicians of his caliber are too busy to spend half their day on a website. Plus, we have to consider the big fish in a small pond mentality that he obviously takes advantage of!
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Date Aug. 10 2003 19:55:21
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to Florian)
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That guy certainly has a nice sound! Is he a pro?
And you're right Florian, the World is a big place and there are bound to be some excellent foreign players who don't bother with Forums and the like.
What get's me about Todd though is, the first time I heard about him on the FT Forum,
I downloaded a track on his site expecting to hear Rumba type fast picado stuff overdubbed on a backing track.
I was surprised when I heard a nice Sabicas style Soleares.
I then thought that the guy was probably a good Jazz guitarist or something, who had worked hard to play a couple of showcase Flamenco pieces for his set, but would be very restricted playing Flamenco in general.
Well, I was proved wrong when around Christmas time he posted a superb Tomatito Bulerias with great dynamics, tone and timing.
Then he posted a Sanlucar Guajiras etc...
It's not only technique with Todd...he has really great taste in Flamenco and the puro tradition.
I think he constantly get's a lot of stick for his unorthodox style of playing though.
It's funny...if Todd played cheesy Alex Fox style stuff, he'd probably be making a lot of money and have a big fan following and generally more accepted in the way that a lot of Flamenco enthusiasts quite like a bit of Gypsy Kings stuff.
I think Todd's greatest sin is to attempt to play genuine solo Flamenco guitar using a pick technique and this is going to be his cross to bear all his life.
A lot of Flamenco fans are just going to refuse to believe their ears, take one look at his right hand and immediately write him off.
I think he knows this and that's what contributes to his "touchy" nature.
I think he's working on material for a CD and it will be interesting to see how his career develops over the years, provide he hasn't fallen out with every potential fan by then! LOL!!
Ron
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Date Aug. 11 2003 9:09:51
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to steenland)
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Ron i agree i am a big ! beliver in give credit where credit is due and Todd deserves all the credit for his left hand and for having the courage to pick those solos and not just doing rumba type stuff.
Only one opinion
from me tho cause i always hear "pure this" "pure that" the only thing pure about flamenco is that is always changing. Change is natural if flamencos stayed pure there would be no guitar only cante, there would be no Paco de Lucia , Tomatito, Jeronimo and every falseta would sound the same. I think is unavoidable that soon (if not allready) the line between flamenco and jazz guitar will be very very thin, the only thing thing that will keep flamenco flamenco its what it has always kept it before is not a peticular chord or key's or scales guitarists play in, is "Aire, Compas and technique (but even the technique will probably change).
SO my point is that i forghot what my point was :))
oh thats right ! i hate the word "flamenco puro' I think that anyone that plays guitar with Aire, compas and technique is doing "flamenco puro' there is however guitar styles u like and guitar styles u dont like, take me for example "please Simon dont kik me out for what i am about to say ":) but i dont like : Diego del Gastor, Sabicas ,Paco de Lucia, Sanlucar or Paco Pena, I have nothing but respect for them but i dont like theyr styles.I do however like your tangos falseta u submited to me RON :):):)
errr i have no idea why i just wrote all that about "flamenco puro" is out of my system now
i promisse i wont bring it up again. :)
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Date Aug. 11 2003 11:21:00
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to steenland)
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Guys, you know I just got back from Seville, and had the chance to see a lot of stuff there live, that before I had only listened to on CDs or seen on videos. It's an interesting scene, when you go to a festival and see someone accompanying Chocolate, playing nothing past 1950, and then the next group is Antonio Canales, dancer, who is dancing something the purists won't even acknowledge as flamenco, and whose guitarist doesn't play a single picado or unaltered chord the whole act. I have always loved Paco de Lucia and Vicente Amigo, so I considered myself on the modernist side of the fence, however, when I saw people live who emulate them, or what you might call "post paco" guitarists, I felt a certain lack there. When a guitar is playing with a cajon and a bass, the guitarist must necessarily play less. Like any other kind of band, there is a sonic space and it must be shared. But this is a sparse, lean style of playing, when compared to some of the old masters, who had to shoulder the whole load themselves. The new style of playing, and of course this is merely a generalization, lacks rhythmic drive. I don't like a guitar that just adds flavor here and there, "lead licks." I like when the guitar grabs a bit more of the responsibility for the rhythm as well as melody.
One of my teachers in Sevilla went to a Gerardo Nunez workshop in July. He said that Nunez' technique is phenomenal, quite beyond describing. I said, "is he as good as paco?" He replied that he was better, although not necessarily to his taste. Nunez plays almost all free strokes for his lead lines, although he can play picado too. Anyways I know Nunez can play anything he wants to, but his playing is a bit floating and subtle for me. I like flamenco guitar al cajones.
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Date Aug. 11 2003 15:07:05
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Phil
Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to steenland)
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Florian said,
quote:
but i dont like : Diego del Gastor, Sabicas ,Paco de Lucia, Sanlucar or Paco Pena, I have nothing but respect for them but i dont like theyr styles.
RonM Said, quote:
But I must admit the stuff that PdL plays now is way over my head....I can't follow it! To me his "Luzia" album is just a jumble of notes played with a great technique. Same for Vincente Amigo and some others.
I think it's interesting that Florian thinks PdL is old hat and Ron finds him to be too modern. I've never heard anything from the Luzia album (I'll have to see if I can find a sample on the internet ). I kind of lost interest in solo Flamenco guitar albums a few years ago. I just downloaded Vicente Amigo's "Tres Notas para Decir Te Quiero" to see what he's all about and sorry, Amigo fans, but that is definitely NOT my idea of Flamenco. It sounds more like Brazilian music ala Tonino Horta or somebody. I realize that that is only one example of his playing and it might be a bad example. Can any Amigo fans recommend anything that sounds more Flamenco? Juan Manuel Cañizares is another modern player that I just can't get into. The Siguiriya that he plays accompanying Enrique Morente on Saura's movie "Flamenco" doesn't sound ANYTHING like a Siguiriyas to me (and either does Morente's singing for that matter). I think that overall my tastes are more along the lines of Ron's. Good solid Flamenco without the jazz chords and with a compas that can be followed.
Regarding Manolo Sanlucar: I've always been impressed by his technique (nobody has a tremelo like he does), but I never felt that he played "muy Flamenco." His Malagueñas, Granainas, and Rondeñas are beautiful but his other stuff never fired me up, which brings me to his album "Tauromagia." Even though a lot of people have criticized it for not being Flamenco enough with the orchestration and different twists on the cante and such, I think the actual guitar playing is the most "Flamenco" I've ever heard from Sanlucar. It just grabs me and I never get tired of listening to it. Flamenco and not Flamenco at the same time. Does that make sense and does anyone else share my opinion?
BTW we could use a flame war (a gentlemanly and civilized one of course  ) around here to liven things up a bit.
Phil
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Date Aug. 11 2003 19:50:06
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Paul Bruhns
Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to Josh)
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My Take:
We all get different things from Flamenco music. I like the traditional Cante Jondo that probably doesn't even make the charts these days. I think Diego del Gastor was so good at what he did...accompany the cante! That's what blows my skirt up (not gay!).
Others like virtuoso guitar that exceeds traditional rhythm, and challenges our understanding. There's nothing wrong with that. I won't go out of my way to listen to it or to critique it, simply because I don't like it... but, I won't trash it either. It represents an artist's interpretation of an art form. And having that in the world is a very good thing (my opinion).
I also think it's important to know the difference. And, frankly, I'm not sure a whole lot of people really do. Some think because they can play a soleares that they understand and know the soleares, or whatever palo, but, if you asked them to accompany the soleares (which is a song) I think very few of us could get by the first few measures. Very few understand that it really is not a dance! Although it has been danced to. Similarly, it's not a guitar piece... although it has form which is played on guitar.
Before we trash an artist, we should try to understand what it is we are critiqing. Are we just critiquing their playing of a certain guitar piece... if so, it's a mute point, unless we understand what the palo is actually about. For example, do we feel the soleares when we hear Vincente Amigo play "Tio Arango"? or are we intrigued by his virtuosity on the guitar? Would this fit the song (cante jondo) of the palo? (Phil I understand your remark about the uninspiring guitarist in Cadiz).
Let's talk Flamenco sometime instead of guitar players!!! :-)
Thanks for the space :-)
Paul
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Date Aug. 12 2003 1:13:45
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bailoro2000
Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to steenland)
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Usually avoid the topic of the "William Bonney" of flamenco guitar, Mr K, but he seems to be getting an awful lot of air time at the moment. Main problem he has IMO is not much more than his being twenty. I remember only too well what a clever b-----d I was at that age. Thought I was the hottest thing on the planet. I was wrong (-:
Real difference then was you had to prove your credibility on the street. At the local ballrooms you might be king, but go to another town and it was a different story. Forums were things from films like Quo Vadis, Ben Hur and The Robe and anything you wanted to do had to be done after a ten hour work day. Practising alone all day and writing to forums is okay, but it's no substitute for living and getting out amongst people. Maybe the Todd'ler should do that. His talent is undisputed, his committment admirable and his respect for the art unquestioned. His respect for the human race in general, and some of its members in particular, is nothing short of juvenile. "Rebel without a cause" springs to mind. Like us all, growing up (provided it occurs before 60) will cure the Toddl'er in time. A famiy, kids and a mortgage will do it overnight
I was once going to be the greatest dancer alive....then I discovered women and the
decline began. Now, three marriages, three kids and four grandkids later, I'm only 10th (((-:
How may of you remember "The twang's the thang" ? Keep on strumming (-:
Jim
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Date Aug. 12 2003 12:52:00
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to bailoro2000)
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Jim why should this upset anybody this is a good chance for us all to ge to know eachother and our views. I am enjoying this discussion very much , i hope that everyone else sees this as i see it and dosent take anything personally, because the truth is that there is not always 1 truth or 1way.
everything can be changed eg: 1 there was this thing that u had to be a gipsy to be a greate guitarist, that theory was blown to pieces.
2, there was the one that an outsider living outside spain could never be as good as someone living in spain.( guitarist )not true theres amazing guitarists born and leaving outside spain.
I wouldnt place too much on one person judging at the end of the day it is one person
PDL, Tomatito, etc they have all gotten bad reviews and been criticised for not beeing pure enough.
there is absolutley no one way or the right way to do this.
Truth is that no matter what u do theres always goona be that one guy that says " NO! this is no flamenco " :)
Btw; There is a video done by Oscar Herrero called acompaning Solea cante, i have it , i also play for classes and singers and to be honest i have learned more about acompaning cante from the video, The guy in the video sings by himself without the guitar and u acompany. what is the difference between that and having the guy in the room ? see the greate thing about the video is that u can rewind as much as you like.
the only thing u really need to play flamenco is a heart (for the aire) thick skin ( to be able to ignore all the criticism, and trust me there will be plenty)and to be honest with yourself ( whatever you put into it is what u get out, if u wanna be the best u have to practice twice as much as the best).
there is the part of me that agrees with everysingle thing that everyone else has said here
theres is the part of me that agrees with myself 
and there is the big part of me that agrees that not 1 single person (be it paco himself or Camaron has the right answers for everysingle person each must folow theyr own heart and find theyr own way there).
this is just my opinion
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Date Aug. 12 2003 16:01:03
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bailoro2000
Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
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RE: Flame Wars (in reply to Florian)
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Glad you see it that way Florian.
Sometimes I feel disadvantaged at not being able to play guitar, in other instances it is a bonus, because I don't have to analyse everything in the way a musician does. I certainly know good music from bad or mediocre stuff as I am a true music lover. I also tend not to be too critical between flamenco guitarists or any others because I listen to the whole thing and appreciate talent in anyone. Tone, rise and fall, good improvisation within the timing, good accentuation, personal aire and most of all rythmn are all things I hear without the need to listen for the odd bum note or accidental heavyhandedness. I don't even need to listen carefully, just listen, and let the music or the player do the rest.
This is a natural thing that some of us non-musicians can develop and maybe even gain more enjoyment then the players who have to fully concentrate all the time and are ever critical of their own performance. There is no finer visual thing than to actually see that a musician is enjoying himself. You know then that his personality is at peace with his talent and you are experiencing something special. Sometimes you hear brilliant Spanish style guitar runs in music that isn't flamenco and from players whose first talent is singing. Roger Whittaker did it in "San Miguel" and Al Stewart in " On the border" Azucar Moreno's guitarist did it in their hit, "Bandido" and many others have done the same. With a guitarist it may get analysed, for me it was pure pleasure listening.
My first love has alwayas been dance and if the music moves me into motion then the
rythmn must be relating to the heartbeat and vise versa. With flamenco, the compas obviously needs learning or the rythmn appears disjointed and meaningless. Once learned it becomes something you relate all else to. I have to admit that with some of the more modern guitarists the compas becomes blurred and uncertain. That said, there is a real world of talent out there.
Sorry if I've been long-winded (as usual) (-:
Saludos.. Jim.
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Date Aug. 12 2003 19:41:34
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