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Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
Ever bought a guitar through this site?
I came across this while shopping for a new guitar... I wonder if this site is legit or not as it seems rather sketchy, but the prices are much lower than anywhere else. It's www.****.com . Inputs anyone?
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
I haven't, but I would have serious doubts about these prices. I was at Sanchis' taller last week, I have a freshly printed price list in my hand, and it says a Ricardo Sanchis Carpio Cipres (not hermanos) is 4700 EUR.
And this site is apparently selling it (http://****.com/index.php?oms=6000&pro=100360) for 2950.80. Even their 'Normal price without charge' (whatever that means) 3.688,50 EUR, which still gets nowhere near the real price.
They don't appear to be confused between hermanos and padre, in the sense that the photo seems to correctly show the distinctive padre dark line up the back of the neck.
They are selling Hermanos F-Extra cipres (http://****.com/index.php?oms=6000&pro=100285&fot=1) for 2.136,74 EUR, when my price list says 3040.
Too cheap.. perhaps there is a good explanation.. I'd like to hear it
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
I had checked out that website myself for a while but was too skeptical to actually place an order, mainly because the prices seemed suspiciously low. They indicated that they accepted PayPal and major credit cards for payment, so I called PayPal and was told that they had been in business for a number of years and that there had not been any complaints. So I took a huge leap of faith and ordered a guitar from them that I had coveted for a long time, but had apparently been unavailable in the US for a few years; an Amalio Burguet 2F. I'd heard that new ones sell for around $2,000, but ****.com had them listed for about $1,200. The total price for the guitar and hardshell case, plus shipping via the Spanish postal service (Correos Espana) and extended insurance was $1,380 US. I figured that for that price, even if it was a dud or something on the order of a factory reject I could still probably get my money out of it by selling it on eBay. They have a generous return policy, but that is not much of an option unless you buy a very expensive guitar since you have to pay for shipping both ways
I received email confirmation within 24 hours and a nice note from a chap named Pedro, who also notified me the next day that the guitar had been shipped. When the guitar arrived a week later and I opened the very substantial Guardian Featherweight case it came in I was stunned. It is a flawless brand-new signed, dated and numbered Amalio Burguet 2F in immaculate condition. The guitar is gorgeous, with a light orange stain, a beautiful rosette and the most perfectly book-matched back and sides I've ever seen on any guitar. And it plays effortlessly and sounds like a dream, with a clean, clear genuine flamenco tone and amazing volume. The neck is straight as a laser and the action is very low, but there is no fret buzz unless I want it. I also have a very good Raimundo 145, a Jose Ramirez FL2 and a superb Prudencio Saez G-36, but my new 2F is the guitar I'll keep until I die.
The website ****.com is 100% on the level and has the best deals anywhere. Go ahead and buy the guitar of your dreams.
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
Hi Wayne.. Welcome to the foro..
An excellent, and almost unbelievable story!
Any chance you could post up a vid of yourself playing it.. just show the label to the camera, and play a few bars of something ?
I apologise for my cynicism, but when your post count is 1... If a regular has posted this, it would be a different story.. hope you understand, and are not offended.
Would also be a nice way for the foro to get to know you.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
Well, yes , the prices are very low, but imo not impossible, if you accept to make only few bucks on each guitar as a Guitar Dealer.
I saw a price list of Hnos Sanchis Lopez (for Dealers!) and it was about 60-65% of what the Dealer sells to us "normal" people.
Mundo Flamenco sells the Bulerias Model for 2300 Euros now for instance. I guess he buys it for 1300-1400 or something like that
This shop sells it for 2091 Dollars. So still possible.
But anyway, as a Dealer, its also different if you have the Guitars in Stock, or if you order them AFTER you get the order from the End User. I guess the one who stocks them must calculate different.
p.s. : anyway, as flybynight mentioned, a review of a shop from a new member in his first post could always be the shop himself (i am NOT saying this is the case here, i am just saying it COULD be), so more details and posts would help to be sure !!
p.p.s. oh and if you look at some other brands and prices, they are not that phenomenally low and more like normal good prices. like the Saez 22 Flamenco Guitar. They sell it for 770 Dollars. I bought this guitar some time ago for something like 550 euros, new. Or look at the Conde prices, not that cheap.
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to flybynight)
No worries, fellas. I'm not a shill for that company. I'm just a classical/flamenco hobbyist with enough time on his hands to do a lot of research on interesting guitars, and sufficient resources to buy one now and then when I find a really good deal. I'm also not much of a joiner, and would likely never have signed up for the foro if I hadn't stumbled across the good doctor's query about the website in question while I was researching it myself before I actually placed my order. When it turned out to be the most favorably memorable purchase I'd ever made, I had to share it with those of you who might be interested. That said, I am most favorably impressed with what I have read on the foro so far, and it seems to be far and away the best forum of its kind. Thanks to all of you for the warm welcome.
For your info, there is another Spanish guitar website, guitars.com.es, that also has low prices, but they can vary quite a bit either way from ****.com. Some prices for the same guitar are lower on the former and higher on the latter, and vice versa: For example, the price of a Burguet 2F is $400 lower at MSG, but the price of a Ramirez FL2 is $600 higher. The shipping rates are similar, but guitars.com.es only accepts direct bank transfers from the US, whereas MSG accepts credit/debit card payment through PayPal, which made my transaction a lot more comfortable for me. They both have a 7-day return policy for a full refund, less shipping, and they also both have a two-year warranty on everything they sell. Since the latter requires that the buyer pay shipping to and from Spain, it would be of little or no use for a less expensive guitar, but it's certainly no worse than the typical runaround one gets from a typical retailer such as Guitar Center for warranty work after a sale.
Over the last few years I've been reading foro members advice and opinions about various flamenco guitars, which has been very helpful to me. I've experienced several different guitars myself, so here are a few observations of my own on the subject:
Manuel Rodriguez guitars don't seem to be very highly regarded on the forum. I've checked out a few of them over the years and found them to be about as good as any factory-made guitars, and better than most. But over the last couple of years their previously consistent standard of quality appears to have taken a dive. The FF Flamenco struck me as a nice guitar, but it seemed more like just a yellow classical guitar than a flamenco.
I found the highly rated Alhambra 7fc to be a good guitar, but a bit heavy, and rather pedestrian all around. Nothing there that really grabbed me at all.
I've checked out several Ramirez FL2's. Good-looking, good-sounding guitars of apparently good quality. Good sound, decent volume. But for $3,000 I would expect to conjure up adjectives slightly more pungent than "good" and "decent."
The Raimundo 145 is a very good guitar. Mine is a 1995 model in near mint condition. Beautiful woods throughout. It has a defined, crisp and nasal tone with good volume. Nice and light. A genuine flamenco for a reasonable price.
Came across a Lucida Picado once after having read numerous rave reviews. It's a good, inexpensive flamenco guitar to buy if you can find a used one. Or you could spend a few bucks more for the new model of it's clone, the Prudencio Saez 22, which is probably about as good an all-solid-woods flamenco as there is for the price.
The Prudencio Saez G-36 looks and sounds fabulous; beautiful woods, great, rich flamenco tone and excellent volume. It's slightly heavier than some flamencos but it feels marvelous and plays like a dream. About as good as it gets for the money ($1,500), with the exception of.............
the Amalio Burguet 2F. I'm no expert by any stretch, but I can't imagine any guitar that looks and sounds better than this baby. I considered the 1F, which is supposed to have a somewhat better quality of woods and slightly better sound, but I just couldn''t hear it. Also, the more elaborate purfling on the 1F seemed a bit much for my taste. By contrast the 2F is an example of elegant simplicity. (The tuners, for example, are of very good quality, but they're downright Spartan compared with most others). The 2F is light as a feather but it's physically almost identical to the FL2 except for the headstock and the rosette, and the body dimensions match right down to the millimeter. But to play and hear them is to really discern the differences. The 2F plays as smooth as butter and has a louder, richer flamenco sound. Sounds like a concert flamenco to my ears.
I tried some cheaper flamenco guitars years ago, but resisted the urge to buy one. The Manuel Rodriguez C3F with laminated Sycamore back and sides actually might have a better flamenco sound than the FF, but at a price of $500 it makes more sense to pay a little more for a decent flamenco with all solid woods. If you must have something very inexpensive and don't want to wait for something like a used Lucida Picado or Prudencio Saez 22 to come along, get yourself a Yamaha CG171SF with laminated Cypress back and sides for around $350. Their quality is consistently good and for the price they probably can't be beat.
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
I just wanted to say thanks for following up with that post. The initial recommendation did look suspicious, but it's always helpful to get honest feedback on online vendors. So thanks for the clarification!
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Flamencofan)
yes, thanks for clarification and your second post.
funnily both companies you mentioned (guitars.com.es and ****.com) belong to same person/company runned by: Luis Aragones Carnicero. This company seams to be a huge one running many different websites with all kind of musical instruments. thats also maybe they can calculate with better prices sometimes. anyway, its a bit funny that the same company has different prices for same guitar models on different websites.
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Arash)
A smart operator could set up multiple websites and trading names under the same actual company (or different companies) to give the illusion of a free market.
If they did this enough to crowd out the rest of the competitors, a customer might think they have a 'choice', when in fact they are just choosing from different arms of the same octupus.
If enough businesses/websites are set up, he could pretty much guarantee to get the business, as it's just a 'numbers game', that you would probably hit on his websites to compare against each other.
And they might think they are getting a good deal Vs the other one, but the network is designed to give that impression. Customer wouldn't suspect it's the same company, if prices are different.
The reason to do this is to steal market share. Which would work, so long as prices were competitive, and it has the advantage of killing off the competitors, and negotiating buying cheaper per unit as they are taking bigger volumes. Leaving only one octopus taking all the business.
Many companies start out small, then are bought out by bigger companies, but the smaller brands are kept, so people think they have a choice, and stay emotionally attached to their 'brand'.
In this case (if it's all true), he's creating non-existent competitors to give the same illusion. Pretty clever stuff.
I'd recommend that he should now set up a musical instrument comparison website, only listing his own websites.
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to tantrum)
You're quite welcome, Tantrum. But who knows? Perhaps flybynight is right and conspiracy theories are warranted. All I know is that I got a fantastic deal on a fabulous guitar through a website that I, and apparently many others have never heard of. That's good enough for me.
As Arash noted, if one person owns both companies I can appreciate minor differences in price, which generally seems to be the case here. But the fact that a few items are listed for enormously different prices would seem rather odd to me as well, even if there were no connection between the two companies at all. One huge price difference is the listed prices for the Hermanos Sanchis Lopez Solea: On guitars.com.es it's offered at $2,524, but on ****.com it's only about half as much at $1,392. At that price I'd consider buying one myself.
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Flamencofan)
You're right- regardless of how the companies are structured, the underlying price question still remains.
The Sanchis Lopez 2010 price list doesn't even list the Solea model, so I could understand they were flogging them off to suppliers to get rid of them, as an 'end of line' thing.
The only models on their 2010 list - direct from their workshop, are 2f, 1f, f.extra, f. rsc, f.rsc (rio).
Or maybe the intonation is a bit out on other guitars, or they have other minor flaws ?
What do guitar makers do with guitars that are not 100%, but 90% of the people wouldn't notice ? Sell them at full price, bin them etc ?
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to flybynight)
Well, I did it again. After my excellent experience purchasing my Amalio Burguet 2F from ****.com I decided to buy another guitar from the site. I ordered a Hermanos Sanchis Lopez Solea for around $1,500 including case and shipping, and it arrived at my door in less than a week. Magnificent guitar, perfect condition, wonderful flamenco tone. This is my first guitar with a 660 mm scale but it is smooth as glass and effortless to play. It has a straight neck and a very low action but there is no buzz whatsoever unless I really dig in. I'm here to tell you that you cannot go wrong buying from this site. Unless, of course, you prefer to pay a lot more money and perhaps wait a long time for delivery as well.
By the way, it does indeed appear that the Solea and 2F-05 models are being discontinued, which might account for the very low prices. The 2F-05 is said to be an excellent entry level model and the Solea is a step up. They can be ordered in natural, orange or red finish. I got mine in natural, and I couldn't be happier with it.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
I agree with nealf.. Let's be honest here.. who here would buy 2 brand new guitars within a few weeks of each other that are similar in standard. It's not like a yamaha was ordered and then he bought a Hermanos Sanchis Lopez Solea. But flamencofan, you say you bought 2 guitars within a few weeks of each other that are similar in pricing/status/standard. VERY suspicious I have to say. No one does that.
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)
Well, DoctorX2k2, it seems I've struck a raw nerve with a few of the members by answering your question about ****.com and offering you and other interested members the benefit of my own experience with the site. Like you, I do not have the luxury of popping down to the corner guitar shop to check out their extensive array of flamenco guitars. Most of us are probably lucky to be within a few hours drive of any sort of guitar shop at all, most likely the type that might only stock the odd classical guitar among scores of Fenders and Gibsons, if any at all. Anyone who says they would never buy online either has much better direct access the goods than most of us or they don't buy at all.
I am fortunate enough to be able to occasionally buy interesting guitars to add to my collection (and sometimes sell a few others) whenever my curiosity is sufficiently piqued and a particularly good deal comes along. The difference between me and a few smug pontificators out there is that on this particular subject I actually know what I'm talking about. It would be a pity if those who would rather pose as sagacious realists than make the effort to determine the facts could dissuade anyone else from exercising his own judgement and taking advantage of a really good deal.
No good deed ever goes unpunished, indeed. Sufficiently chastened for having the audacity to offer a reality-based answer to one of the members on a very important subject, I will now withdraw and leave the field to the self-styled wise men with their conspiracy theories rattling around their fevered imaginations. I wonder though: Do any of these guys actually play guitar, or do they just sit around jerking off and chattering to each other on this forum about how shrewd they are?
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Flamencofan)
quote:
No worries, fellas. I'm not a shill for that company
Really? Count the superlatives:
quote:
I was stunned. It is a flawless brand-new signed, dated and numbered Amalio Burguet 2F in immaculate condition. The guitar is gorgeous, with a light orange stain, a beautiful rosette and the most perfectly book-matched back and sides I've ever seen on any guitar. And it plays effortlessly and sounds like a dream, with a clean, clear genuine flamenco tone and amazing volume. The neck is straight as a laser and the action is very low, but there is no fret buzz unless I want it. I also have a very good Raimundo 145, a Jose Ramirez FL2 and a superb Prudencio Saez G-36, but my new 2F is the guitar I'll keep until I die.
"stunned, flawless, immaculate, gorgeous, beautiful, perfectly, effortless, sounds like a dream, genuine, amazing, straight as a laser, superb... keep until I die."
Sounds like a pitch to me.
Thing is, viral marketing is shot full of holes when you post to a forum like this and people raise doubts in the same thread.
Then this shows up in Google on the same page as when folks check out "www.****.com". Lots of doubts, not good - and it may take years for that to go away.
Try Googling "andalusian guitars" and you'll see what I mean.
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Flamencofan)
quote:
I will now withdraw and leave the field to the self-styled wise men with their conspiracy theories rattling around their fevered imaginations. I wonder though: Do any of these guys actually play guitar, or do they just sit around jerking off and chattering to each other on this forum about how shrewd they are?
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Flamencofan)
"Count the superlatives"
Yes, that and this line should be the ultimate evidence of advertisement:
"They can be ordered in natural, orange or red finish."
Nobody who bought a guitar is going to spend time on describing other colors which are available in the shop. When i was reading i thought the only thing missing there is a link saying "here you can order the different colors" and "please enter your credit card information here ......... "
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Flamencofan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Flamencofan
I wonder though: Do any of these guys actually play guitar, or do they just sit around jerking off and chattering to each other on this forum about how shrewd they are?
I don't play guitar much and I chat in this forum even less. But I think you should take this as a learning experience to make the spam more subtle rather than getting angry.
Posts: 2536
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Pablito)
quote:
"stunned, flawless, immaculate, gorgeous, beautiful, perfectly, effortless, sounds like a dream, genuine, amazing, straight as a laser, superb... keep until I die."
Rumbled!!
actually kinda reminds me of this little bit from the late great george carlin!!!
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Arash)
Hello again Arash,
I'm the guy who actually bought a couple of guitars on ****.com, had excellent results, and then made the mistake of passing the word on this forum, which caused a bit of a **** storm among a few of the members.
I wanted you to know that I appreciated your reasoned responses to my posts, and that my final thoughts on the forum were not directed at you in any way. Over the years before I joined, I'd had the pleasure of reading many interesting and illuminating posts on this forum by serious guitarists, dealers and aficionados, and yours were certainly in that category; quite unlike so much of the childish tripe one sometimes has to wade through to find a nugget of wisdom.
Had I to do it all over again I would never have offered those words of helpful advice, if only to have avoided the possibility of diverting any business away from apparently respectable, smaller guitar dealers like yourself. Your website, arashguitars.com, is very impressive, by the way.
I wish you all the best.
P.S. Christ, something just occurred to me........ I hope my endorsement of your website doesn't have a detrimental effect on your business.
On second thought, probably not. I doubt that those overly suspicious types actually buy anything anyway.
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Ever bought a guitar through thi... (in reply to Flamencofan)
quote:
I'm the guy who actually bought a couple of guitars on ****.com, had excellent results
Oh dear, looks like our spam filter just kicked in and has blanked all references to your URL. You know, a bit like when you typed **** storm? .... same thing.
I do so hate it when that happens
Anyway, keep it up. It must take you days to think of your next post on this thread and I enjoy wasting your time.
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