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Andalusian Guitars are made in Mexico according to one source   You are logged in as Guest
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gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

Andalusian Guitars are made in Mexic... 

Andalusian Guitars are made in Mexico, according to a profile published at:

http://www.foroswebgratis.com/usuario-andalusian_guitars-4372-442887.htm

Name: ANDALUSIAN GUITARS
Country: Mexico
State: State of México
MSN: andalusian_guitars@hotmail.com.mx
Yahoo: andalusian_guitars@yahoo.com.mx

In recent months, promoters and distributors of the Andalusian guitars have launched an intense advertizing campaign to introduce these instruments on several internet forums. Mr. Ruben Diaz, a self-proclaimed student of the iconic flamenco guitarist Paco De Lucia, and allegedly a guitar instructor at a music conservatory in Canada, lead such marketing efforts. Through numerous videos Mr. Diaz presented the Andalusian Guitars and illustrated their characteristics.

The Andalusian Guitars advertized label provides scarce information regarding “who” makes the guitars and “where”, but contains the word “Espana” which suggests Spain is the products’ country of origin. Members of ForoFlamenco, an active internet forum gathering professional and amateur flamenco guitarists, have reacted to the imposing advertising campaign by seeking answers to such basic questions -where are the Andalusian Guitars made and by whom?

No direct answer was provided to these simple questions, provoking inevitable adverse inferences as to the accuracy of the advertized information. Absent the candid exchange of information about the product, to which musicians are accustomed with luthiers and guitar-shops internationally, the Andalusian Guitars' advertising campaign seems to be a fraudulent marketing scheme aimed to form a perception of prestige through uncorroborated claims to a proper provenance “Spain” made by the hands of such important maker that his name must be kept in the strictest confidence.

Rumors have it that Paco de Lucia has neither endorsed the guitars nor played them, contrary to certain photographs appearing on the internet depicting the legendary “Prince of Anadalusia” holding one such instrument adjacent to a handwritten note (allegedly from Paco himself) which praises the guitars as the best ever made.

Since one of the critical purposes of foroflamenco, a non for profit organization, is to gather and publish consumers’ review of all products related to flamenco (guitars, strings, music scores, recording equipment and the like) in order to educate the interested public, the foro welcomes any information which may settle these unanswered questions and assist consumers accordingly.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 7:02:10
Guest

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

Hola

I have more or less abandoned this Forum, but I have some revelant information about Andalusian Guitars. The summer before last, a gaditano guitarist now living in Canada, returned on holiday with a guitar which he wanted to show me. He assured me that this very guitar appeared in a video of Paco and he was very proud to own it.

I examined the guitar. The wood was not primera cualidad, but more important were the poor design and construction. Although the strings were excessively separated from the fingerboard, they were excessively close to the tapa, which made the guitar uncomfortable to play. At the bridge there was scarcely any break angle, which meant that any small movement of the wood could render the guitar unplayable.

As for sound, there was a guitar in the local music shop, made by Aparicio de Valencia, for 150 euros, which sounded better, and was better constructed.

These comments refer only to the example I examined and should not be construed as a condemnation of all guitars from this source.

Suerte

Seán
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 7:31:47
 
Arash

Posts: 4465
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

edit: beating a dead horse

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 7:46:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13404
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuerdasDulces

Theres your answer.

http://www.foroswebgratis.com/usuario-andalusian_guitars-4372-442887.htm

Name: ANDALUSIAN GUITARS
Country: Mexico
State: State of México
MSN: andalusian_guitars@hotmail.com.mx
Yahoo: andalusian_guitars@yahoo.com.mx


I had related a story a while back in a different thread, my buddy was given a free guitar by Ruben himself, and it looked exactly same as Andalusian, bridge and head etc, I said for sure the guitar was mexican, like ruben himself, and also, the label had a name inside, not "andalusian". It said spain, but a name my friend had not heard nor could find in spain. My vague memory of the name....manuel cana or cano? So I found the "casa" in paracho of don manuel rubio cano and his sons who build guitars. Sons are J. perfecto rubio vasquez, jacinto, guillermo, and Victor Manuel.

In this vid, I could not see any andalusian guitar makes, but you see Guillermo Rubio Vasquez hold up a board with a sketch outline of a bridge with tapered ends ala Ruben's guitars (as given to my friend, a slight difference to the andalusion style) 7:15



I am thinking a simple phone call to one of these makers might clear up WHO builds the andalusian guitars for Ruben.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 7:49:12
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

Welp, Ricardo here did say that the guitars are 100% Mexican made in another thread. To be perfectly neutral in all this, email addresses don't prove the country of origin of any product, but we all know that of course. This is in my opinion, another clue in the puzzle.

And Ruben would be getting away with this if it weren't for you meddling kids!


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 7:49:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13404
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to kovachian

quote:

Welp, Ricardo here did say that the guitars are 100% Mexican made in another thread.

It got deleted, but someone reposted my story on another thread. It is all confusing, I will try to find my original story. Basically my friend, a professional player, was given maybe 2 or more of these guitars by Ruben himself, ended up modifying it etc. But it was thought to be mexican despite the "spain" label, because Ruben and wife dancer were mexican, and my friend had performed WITH ruben IN mexico, etc etc...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 7:59:11
 
Arash

Posts: 4465
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Ricardo

edit: beating a dead horse

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 8:03:13
 
CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Ricardo

http://arcangel.fastmail.net/guitars/cano/#
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 8:07:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13404
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to CuerdasDulces

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuerdasDulces

http://arcangel.fastmail.net/guitars/cano/#


Well, I realize it does not give the maker's name, but why the "cano" label?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 8:13:35
 
Mike_Kinny

 

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009
 

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

guitar instructor at a music conservatory in Canada


Also Toronto Royal Conservatory of Music (RCM) is not a music conservatory as understood in other countries. RCM doesn't offer a degree (BSc, MSc, Phd). Anybody with any background can take any number of courses at RCM.

The only exception is RCM's Glenn Gould School that is a full-time school and the graduates of this school may transfer 70 credits towards a bachelors degree only at Thompson Rivers University's Open Learning which requires 120 credits to graduate.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 8:49:46
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Guest

Sean, good to see you posting on the forum, especially as you have hands on experience of the subject.

On a personal note, Harold and I will be in Jerez for the festival from 28 feb till the 3rd and hope we can meet up.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 9:09:30
 
Escribano

Posts: 6327
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Guest

quote:

Hola

I have more or less abandoned this Forum,


Hey Sean, long time. Thanks for your insight, I know how well you know your guitars down there in Cádiz.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 9:10:09
 
Escribano

Posts: 6327
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

For those that can read Spanish, there is another discussion on the topic from 2 weeks ago over at a Spanish guitar forum:

http://guitarra.artelinkado.com/foros/showthread.php?t=13724

Or you can enjoy Google's translation:
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fguitarra.artelinkado.com%2Fforos%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D13724&sl=es&tl=en

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 9:42:20
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

For those that can read Spanish, there is another discussion on the topic from 2 weeks ago over at a Spanish guitar forum:

http://guitarra.artelinkado.com/foros/showthread.php?t=13724


I enjoyed reading that forum, and discovered some of our members here are quite fluent in Spanish.

I loved this proverb someone quoted there, and really sums it all up...
"Quien pregunta es un tonto por dos minutos. Quien no pregunta se queda tonto por toda su vida" - Proverbio de la Vieja China

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:12:34
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

That fact that a guitar is built in Mexico, or any other country for that matter, should not be the issue. The issue is a perception that any given guitar is built in another country (in this case Spain). To most of the world, a guitar built in Spain has a certain allure, be it reality or not.

Some exceptional guitars have and are being built in Mexico, and a bunch that are not so great. Again that should not be the issue. We all know Spain turns out tons of poor to mediocre quality guitars, along with many superior instruments.

Noted US builder Kenny Hill had a line of guitars being built in Paracho, Mexico for years. The difference was, Kenny came out at the beginning and stated where they were built, thus no issue of deception. Kenny shut down his Mexico operation due to quality control issues and moved offshore to China. Again right from the outset Kenny stated these guitars were built in China. No perceptions, confusion, or deception.

Richard Brune also had a line of guitars built to his specs in China. Again no issues. Right up front he said that’s where they were built. Our very own Todd K plays one and is an exceptional guitar.

This whole thing reeks of the BS that went on in the 70’s in the US with an infamous guitar dealer. Said dealer not only stated Spain as the origin of the guitars, but went on the make up names of phony builders. He used a made up “Andalusian” sounding company name. Again the perception of origin was the issue. The guitars where in fact built in Japan. He went so far as to use the phony name of Marcelino Barbero, which was a total hoax. When threatened by the Barbero family he finally pulled the labels.

Lot’s of smoke and mirrors in the guitar business.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:16:44
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

Patrick, I hope you understand that we've no issue whatsoever with Mexican-made guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:28:25
 
Estevan

Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Or you can enjoy Google's translation:

I certainly did enjoy it! And one of the members there concurred with my initial impression:

"The truth is that just see his face and you get an idea of how this may be the turkey"

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Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:28:30
 
bursche

Posts: 1181
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Estevan

http://www.foroswebgratis.com/foro-Mensajes.php?id_foro=4372&id_tema=287011&id_mensaje=849563&NumPage=1

Certainly a lot of Ruben stuff™ going on there

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:34:02
 
CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Estevan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

Or you can enjoy Google's translation:

I certainly did enjoy it! And one of the members there concurred with my initial impression:

"The truth is that just see his face and you get an idea of how this may be the turkey"


"Especially do not like very much how he plays the turkey"

Me too. Lol
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:37:47
 
Mike_Kinny

 

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009
 

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Estevan

quote:

"The truth is that just see his face and you get an idea of how this may be the turkey"

That explains his jerky movements.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:48:51
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

Patrick, I hope you understand that we've no issue whatsoever with Mexican-made guitars.


You must not have read my post closely. That's exactly the point I am making. It’s neither the guitar, nor the builder…just the BS about the marketing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:52:52
 
Escribano

Posts: 6327
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Patrick

Agreed Patrick, I have a thing for Mexico and plan a documentary in Paracho one day. I have no problem with beautiful things that are made in Mexico.... I married one.

Such a cool tattoo



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 10:56:06
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Patrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick
This whole thing reeks of the BS that went on in the 70’s in the US with an infamous guitar dealer.


Oh, just call them out. There will always be newcomers to the boards who will need this information.

SHERRY-BRENER.



BTW, I thought Richard Brune had his copies made in Japan and not in China.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 11:00:17
 
Arash

Posts: 4465
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

I have no problem with beautiful things that are made in Mexico.... I married one.



LOL

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 11:09:31
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Patrick

quote:

You must not have read my post closely. That's exactly the point I am making. It’s neither the guitar, nor the builder…just the BS about the marketing.
No I read your post very closely, I just wasn't sure if you were being scolding in the opening sentence of that post, or if you were just pointing out the known for some other reason, so I made my reply as a "feeler" to find out. Typing on internet forums doesn't convey the intricacies of communication, but we're clear now.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 11:14:39
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

SHERRY-BRENER




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 11:18:34
 
Estevan

Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

allegedly a guitar instructor at a music conservatory in Canada

To be fair this needs clarification, and I'll elaborate slightly on what Mike has already said.

Ruben does teach under the auspices of the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto. It's a schizophrenic institution with two very distinct divisions. There is the section formerly known as the Professional School, now called the Glenn Gould School (poor Gould, who hated concert halls, competitions and music schools, now has one of each named after him), which provides advanced training to players of orchestral instruments and piano.

Then there is the Community School, now called the Conservatory School (the previous names were actually more informative about the nature of the two departments), which is - a community music school, meaning that it offers lessons to amateur musicians of all levels and ages. In recent years it has expanded its offerings to include various kinds of pop and "World" music, and that's where Ruben fits in.

From their website:
"It is designed for people of all ages, levels of ability, cultural backgrounds and artistic interests. Renowned for its exceptional academic instruction, we offer a wide variety of musical and creative education including everything from classical, popular, folk, jazz, and world music to classes in writing and film making."

You can see him listed here:
http://www.rcmusic.ca/ContentPage.aspx?name=Portal_Faculty_List_01


Nowhere in the course listings will you find any reference to courses in "Paco de Lucia's Technique" or "Paco de Lucia's Repertoire", unlike in the countless videos where Ruben uses the name of the institution and the false title of Professor, or in his other advertising:
http://tinyurl.com/RD-PdL-RCM

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 11:29:11
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to gj Michelob

Thanks, Estevan. That explains much. We're dealing with a community-ed teacher and not a university professor.

No offense intended to anyone who offers community education classes. But there's a difference between that and being a tenured (or aspiring for tenure) university professor. At least, I hope there still is.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 11:38:01
 
Estevan

Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to GuitarVlog

quote:

We're dealing with a community-ed teacher and not a university professor.

No offense intended to anyone who offers community education classes.

Agreed - I have great respect for them (also - been there, done that).

quote:

But there's a difference between that and being a tenured (or aspiring for tenure) university professor. At least, I hope there still is.


There is still a difference. When this whole weird business erupted the first time around after Ruben started bombarding the foro a few months ago, I asked him to tell us which university had granted him the title of Professor. In characteristic fashion, his response (as with any simple question, it seems) was to rudely change the subject. That speaks volumes.

Around that time he also claimed to have a Doctorate in "harmony", and proceeded to post a harmonic "analysis" of one of Paco's pieces that would not be acceptable from a first year undergraduate.

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Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 11:47:26
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Andalusian Guitars are made in M... (in reply to Estevan

quote:

the title of Professor


For a great number of years, Stanley Unwin, urivalled master of "gobbledegook", through his lectures on science and philosophy to audiences all over Britain (including the major Universities!) went under the title "Professor Stanley Unwin".

Here he gives a discourse on Music....






cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2010 12:10:09
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