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Did "The Blues" originate in Scotland?
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Randal
Posts: 63
Joined: Jan. 29 2010
From: Missoula, MT
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 RE: Did "The Blues" origin... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Some of those jazzers, though, have some pretty crazy things..
You know, though...when B.B. was scufflin on Beale Street with an acoustic guitar, he probably sounded a lot different than what he is known for today. Blues research is fascinating (like flamenco, probably); country blues must have been amazing to hear--we only have some crude field recordings, and what the Lomacks eked-out before the recognition of W.C. Handy. The minstrel tradition encompassed some pretty rootsy stuff, all this converging with hot rhythm and Western harmony in New Orleans produced the most amazing music in history--from James Brown to Bud Powell to Anthony Braxton.
But, so often you hear the term "blues" associated with musicians from West Africa, when what we hear is highlife and juju and that stuff. As you guys mentioned, the influence from the Afro-Caribbean and Brazilian tradition is really what you hear throughout this music. It's as if the cart is before the horse..
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Date Feb. 7 2010 13:39:01
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Did "The Blues" origin... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Hi Ron,
It doesn't seem too unlikely to me, although adjectives made up most of the information in that newspaper article. A black expert's opinion, and I suppose he wasn't given the opportunity to express himself at length, but still I would have liked to see specific and/or technical references.
I remember reading that a number of blues lyrics, like St. James Infirmary, can be traced back to the UK and/or Ireland. There might be a connection, but that would have been a long time ago, don't you think? The same format might have been used in the beginning, but obviously it developed on its own course after a certain point. In that sense, I see a similar situation (and similar difficulty in drawing conclusions) involving gypsies, ancient Spanish music and flamenco.
From the article:
quote:
There is a notion that when African slaves arrived in America they came down the gangplanks of slave ships singing gospel music...
Personally, this kind of reasoning (exaggerated and simplistic) doesn't inspire faith or even patience in me to hear the rest of what he's got to say. But that's just the grouchy old man in me  . In any case, I'm quoting this just to point out that most informed people would never even consider such a scenario.
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Date Feb. 8 2010 7:10:29
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Randal
Posts: 63
Joined: Jan. 29 2010
From: Missoula, MT
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RE: Did "The Blues" origin... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
I'm not very knowledgeable about European Folk music of that time, but I am not aware of any that used that kinda "drone", "modal?" sound with "sliding" or "bending" some notes up a semitone or so (as in early Negro Spirituals), except Gaelic "Mouth Music" in Scotland and also in Irish "whistle" playing.
I'm no musicologist and I lack the knowledge to cite any specifics, but I'm thinking that much early music was modal-based; Gregorian chant, and Eastern European (Bulgaria) folk music, for example. As for "blue notes"--flatted 3rds, 5ths, 7ths--again, I'll have to do some crtitical listening, but I hear a lot of bent notes in Eastern European folk music, and Indian music..
Not to be dismissive at all about your valid observations, Ron--which I appreciate for your clarity . But in applying some lattitude for diffusion and parallelism, I suspect that there is more commonality throughout our endeavors than we're aware. Wasn't it Chomsky who theorized an evolutionary trait in language development that equated to a "universal grammar?" I apply far too much intuition on such matter...which is why I appreciate your more disciplined approach!
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Date Feb. 8 2010 7:56:20
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Did "The Blues" origin... (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
I remember reading that a number of blues lyrics, like St. James Infirmary, can be traced back to the UK and/or Ireland. There might be a connection, but that would have been a long time ago, don't you think?
Hi Norman,
I'm not taliking about Blues from the 1910's or 20's or whatever...much earlier.
I'm sure lyrics would not have come into it at all, only the "sound", since these services were held in the Gaelic language only, never English.
The Western Highlands of Scotland are completely different from the rest of Scotland, with their own language (Gaelic) and customs. Of course they now speak English perfectly, but with a pronounced accent.
My highland friend and I would go to a couple of Gaelic Pubs in Glasgow where unobtainable Malts were served and great music was played and I mixed in that community amongst the young folk from the Highlands and Islands that had come down to Glasgow to seek employment or attend college or Uni.
I even dated some of the very beautiful Highland girls as well, who were as up to date and "cool" as any Glasgow girls, but had this infuriating habit of talking Gaelic to their (girl) friends in the pub while you were there.
So you didn't know if they were talking about you or not. 
Probably my most vivid memory was at a party in a Glasgow tenament top flat, where at 2 in the morning someone unpacked a set of powerful outdoor bagpipes and began to play some inspired traditional solo piping, full belt.
Naturally, the neighbours called the Police, but on a Saturday night they sent only the rookies, so when the Police hammered on the door and it was opened...one of the partygoers recognised the coppers as old schoolfriends from Lewis...
"Donal! Hamish!.....come away in!"
So they did, took their hats off and had a dram!
Western Highland culture is as different as mainstream Spain and the Gitanos of Andalucia and cannot be lumped together as "Scotland" IMO.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Feb. 8 2010 10:57:16
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gardenshed
Posts: 140
Joined: Jul. 31 2006
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RE: Did "The Blues" origin... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Nice try, and the structure of the Hebridean Line-singing is consistent with the structure of the blues, but the blues is much bigger than mere structure.
An equally solid case can be made that the Blues was Born in the valleys of south wales, where the Baptist faith was practised before it was legal, and which was then the brand of evangelicalism most widely imposed on African slaves in America. Not many catholic educated black Americans went on to be notable blues musicians. Billie Holiday, for example.
The little village of Felinfoel in Carmarthenshire, for instance, had the first baptist chapel, and its hymns reflected a history of persecution, exploiting similar keys and intervals to the blues after the fusion with African rhythms and phrasing and experience.
But to get real, the blues was born in the desperate need of a persecuted people, always on the brink of pain, to find comfort and explain their predicament to themselves. Just as flamenco did. And flamenco is, of course, the European Blues.
The creators of the blues were naturally influenced by the music heard all around them, but the blues owes nothing to anyone. And even if it did, it has repaid the debt a million times over by inventing much of modern culture. As Wynton Marsalis says, it is the greatest gift of America to the world.
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Date Feb. 12 2010 3:19:51
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