To Silencio or Not to Silencio

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Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

To Silencio or Not to Silencio

Hey,

I am wondering about this concept. I'm trying to work on Alegrias. Until now I've done Alegrias in La (from the Juan Martin books) and in Mi from the Paco Pena book - both with a few other falsetas from here and there thrown in.

As a solo piece is it customary to include the Silencio (the slower minor section for anyone not familiar with the terminology) (those method books both include the silencio section)

Without opening another modern vs traditional debate - is the silencio OUT, is it reserved exclusively for accompaniment?

Personally, I like playing it as it gives a nice harmonic constrast and the tempo change to slower and then back to faster for the final estrebillo and end is a nice tension builder as well.

Thanks for your opinions,

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 8:27:02

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

To Silencio or not to Silencio – that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous modern flamenco aficionados, or to take arms against a sea of arpeggios, and by opposing end them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 9:17:39

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ramon Amira)

You missed a comma

"and, by opposing, end them"
......^

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 9:22:19

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

I like fast silencios (not slowed down to the rest) in todays solo pieces, i think Nunez does one. But other than that i would guess its not common, and as a solo guitarrist you are free to choose anyway.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 9:22:57

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

a sea of arpeggios,

LOL!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 9:23:05

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

It's all the director's fault!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 9:24:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

The concept is only for baile, and not always used. That musical section could actually be the entire piece if you want to work on it like that. See Paco's Barrio La Viña, or Recuerdo a Patiño. As mentioned, you can simply modulate to minor key as Gerardo does, but that is not really a "silencio" to me. The idea is to slow down and be melodic and not so rhythmically aggressive as the rest, some serious down time contrast for the dance. You never need to do that for cante accomp.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 9:57:10

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

You missed a comma

"and, by opposing, end them"
......^

Actually, correct punctuation does not call for a comma there. Also, I have five different copies of Hamlet, and not one of them includes a comma in that sentence.

But you have given us a great new thread – "To comma or not to comma, that is the question."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 10:07:33

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

Ricardo is correct – the Silencio is really only for Baile. As he says, it lends contrast to the dance both in key and tempo. You occasionally hear it in solos, but not often. I personally have always included it in a solo performance, for the same reasons, but clearly this is optional. If you like it, I can't see any reason not to include it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 10:14:20

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

don't trust anyone with such a depressive quote from macbeth as signature in a forum.

thats my advice on the silencio issue.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 10:17:22

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

I think now my immune systhem established a natural resistance against ....Juan Martin and Paco Pena.... but Macbeth... the nightmare of 99% pupils? Last time I saw the b/w movie that acted 90% in a large hill of cow-crap with carved rooms..... I needed a drip at an intensive care unit...

By the way Paco Serrano the younger Paco Pena plays a nice silencio kind thing in his alegria "lagunas de sal". Check it out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 10:39:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more."

Well, that was BEFORE recording technology existed. Things are different now. You can just about strut it and "fret" it forever on youtube, or some media, for as long as it matters to humans, but long after you're dead.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 10:41:58

Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

Thanks.

It seems to me in the evergoing struggle of keeping an audience's attention, the silencio can be a great tool so I'll leave it in.

I've never heard an Alegrias all in a minor key (as far as I know) so I'll have to check those out.

Now I just need to find and or develope a good tremelo for Alegrias in Mi. I don't really care for the one that's in the Toques Flamenco book.

Stoney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 10:45:17

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

You can just about strut it and "fret" it forever on youtube, or some media, for as long as it matters to humans, but long after you're dead.

Yep... so true..

Elvis may have left the building...but his truth goes marching on....

Now that would be a nicer signature rather than the rantings and ravings of a depressive introvert.

Mind you, ol' Billy Shakespeare was speaking in the third person here of course.

quote:

but Macbeth... the nightmare of 99% pupils?

Doit...I can't believe it.
Don't tell me German kids have got to study that stuff too?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 11:00:53

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Don't tell me German kids have got to study that stuff too?

cheers,

Ron

even iranians have to study that stuff

oh , and elvis is still alive Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 11:10:53

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

Actually, it is neither a "depressive" quote, nor "the rantings and ravings of a depressive introvert." As I have used it, it is standing alone out of context. But the actual context is that his wife has just died, and he is overcome with grief. For him now nothing is left, and he is ruminating on the futility and meaninglessness of life, that a love so deep could end so suddenly, and with it all desire to live. The entire speech is not one of a raving introvert, but rather of a man whose heart is full of sorrow and tragedy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 11:57:53

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

Shakespeare is good definitely though I hated it at school.
However, that people outside the UK study it is embarrassing as if a predominance of anglo saxon culture is going to save the world or generally be better than other peoples' culture.

cheers
Richard

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 12:05:28

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

hey prom., sorry, no offense meant.

i am a little superstitious

lets finish the macbeth discussion with this:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 12:06:48

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Sorry PC,

I was getting mixed up as to whether we were talking about the slings and arrows from another play or what.
In that case I suppose should have written..

"The ranting and ravings of a depressive , murderous, power-hungry Clan chief and his wife in the dark and depressing wasteland of Medieval Scotland."

Anyway, it was ALL totally depressing to all of us schoolkids!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 12:10:22

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

quote:

Don't tell me German kids have got to study that stuff too?

Well,... after several years Goethe and friends..it was not sooo shocking.. but it gave me the rest.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 12:55:19

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

Actually, correct punctuation does not call for a comma there. Also, I have five different copies of Hamlet, and not one of them includes a comma in that sentence.

Grammatically, I could suggest that it is acceptable but it would diminish the importance of "opposing" so I'll concede and Larry doesn't use it either

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 13:16:44

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I suppose should have written..

"The ranting and ravings of a depressive , murderous, power-hungry Clan chief and his wife in the dark and depressing wasteland of Medieval Scotland."

Aw c'mon Ron – you're just mad because you never became King of Scotland. Good thing too – they probably would have had your head for playing flamenco guitar instead of bagpipes.

Anyway, none of this matters - I have been doing some research, and I have discovered evidence that Shakespeare was not really English! He was actually a Zulu warrior. The Zulus were famed for their proficiency with spears. Film clips show that to test for balance they would shake the spear in their hand a bit before flinging it. So there you have it – proof positive that Shakespeare was not really English!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2010 19:59:12

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Stoney)

A couple of examples spring to mind of a silencio used as part of a recorded alegrias - Jose luis Monton does an awesome silencio as an introduction to an alegrias, from the album "Aroma" I think, and Miguel de la Bastide (Canadian guitarist) does one in the middle of the alegrias from his first album "El Cambio".

Aloysius.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 4:50:06

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to marrow3)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marrow3

Shakespeare is good definitely though I hated it at school.
However, that people outside the UK study it is embarrassing as if a predominance of anglo saxon culture is going to save the world or generally be better than other peoples' culture.

cheers
Richard

As an American studying Shakespeare, I have to take offense with the idea that it's "embarassing" for non-Brits to study the world's most sublime author. And frankly, if your only assessment of Shakespeare is that he's "good" then I am very glad you don't have any say in who studies him.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 11:18:20

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Adam)

You have a fair point, British and American (US) culture have a lot in common. I think my comment not meant to mean people shouldn't if they want. But the expectation that they should is strange.

If what I said was a bit of a rant okay. But it's common in this country that things can be amplified to ridiculous proportions. E.g people in Mongolia know who David Beckham is. Or Radiohead touring South America. Anglo saxon culture, like it or not has a very strong influence. Living in this country it makes me uneasy. And think it is a point worth acknoweldging.

Is he really the world's most sublime author?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 11:28:06

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to marrow3)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marrow3

You have a fair point, British and American culture have a lot in common. I think my comment not meant to mean people shouldn't if they want. But the expectation that they should is strange.

And yet many, many people from vastly different cultures get a tremendous amount out of reading Shakespeare. Are you suggesting that people like that have been swindled by the undue influence of Anglo-Saxon culture?

quote:

Is he really the world's most sublime author?

Yes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 11:30:43

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Adam)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramparts
And yet many, many people from vastly different cultures get a tremendous amount out of reading Shakespeare. Are you suggesting that people like that have been swindled by the undue influence of Anglo-Saxon culture?

Cultural dominance is a side-effect of economical and political dominance. It has always been that way, even in shakespears times.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 11:35:00

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Adam)

Okay this probably isn't the right place for this tangent.
World's most sublime author out of 200 nation states, 6000 living languages, thousands of years of history and many billions of people.

The fact that English is the language of globalisation, for the time being at least and Shakespeare one of the best in that language helps him achieve that iconic status.

Don't get me wrong I love macbeth, king lear and other plays. Just a sense of proportion

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 11:37:20

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to marrow3)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marrow3

Okay this probably isn't the right place for this tangent.

Tangents are always appropriate

quote:

World's most sublime author out of 200 nation states, 6000 living languages, thousands of years of history and many billions of people.

The fact that English is the language of globalisation, for the time being at least and Shakespear one of the best in that language helps him achieve that iconic status.

Don't get me wrong I love macbeth, king lear and other plays. Just a sense of proportion

My advice to you is this: Read more Shakespeare.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 11:40:47

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: To Silencio or Not to Silencio (in reply to Adam)

Read more shakespeare.
Always learn more is an argument I have heard a lot - there's always more.
I'm quite happy and have enjoyed what I have read already. That doesn't mean Shakespeare lacks anything. But I, the same as everyone else, have only 24 hours in the day.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 11:50:40