RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed soundport

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cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders. I am simply using the principles of conservation of energy. They have done me well over the years. That is not to say that adding an additional hole on the side of the guitar may change the resonant frequency of the guitar and therefore some of the tones out the front of the guitar may be louder, while others less so. So the guitar might sound a bit brighter or less so on some of the notes. But the sum total RMS energy will be less.

This guy did some tests, but his testing is junk imho. He did not control enough variables, used a sponge to block the soundhole port (absorptive of sound), did not present his data with error measurements, no statistical treatment of data, did not look at the frequency distribution and loudness of same, and probably a hundred other things I haven't bothered to think about.
http://www.mcknightguitars.com/soundports.html

I would love to see some real science on this issue. Right now it is in the still in air in my opinion. The guitar barely puts out any volume, a human voice is louder. So there is not a lot of energy to start with. I doubt the port really improves or reduces projection to any great extent because the hole is a small area compared to the soundhole on the front of the guitar. Most of the guitar's volume is from the sound board vibrating like a speaker cone anyways.

If the tocaor can enjoy his guitar and hear it better then that is the main thing. An amp is a good idea if you are playing to people anyways. I am not too hung up about things.

I just don't like anectotal experience presented as the truth. That has been found to be wrong far to many times. Too many variables there - I know guys who made improvements to their motorcycles and from the seat of the pants they thought they were faster, the actual dyno result was they were slower on all counts, HP and torque.

No worries though! It is all speculation as you say, but the onus doesn't lie with me to prove whether it works or not imho.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 16:11:38

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Ah yes, well at minimum the look of a sound port will no longer be a problem for me. When the sound port was just a hole in the guitar, I had no interest in even trying one, because to me it did not look good, but this really looks great Anders.

Michael

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2010 17:38:18

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Cathulu

Maybe the tests which have been made are not good enough for you, but at least they are tests. What you do is ONLY speculation and IMO thats not worth listening to.... The easyest thing on earth is to speculate on an internet forum..
If you need more science, do more science before you speculate.

I dont need your kind of science. I have my own science called test and learn. I take my guitars to a peña with a 5 - 10 singers and a couple of guitarists in a relatively small room. They are very noisy and talk loudly all the time (they are very spanish). I test the guitar, I ask the other players, I let them try my guitars, I ask the singers... To me thats real science. Testing and learning from your tests listening to others, both guitarists and singers. IMO thats 100% better than science you are talking about.

fx. In such an environment, you find out that very trebly guitars dont work to well. They need some more body in order to penetrate. some more midrange and even low midrange (cojones). You´d never find out these things with your kind of science alone. You can use it later on to understand scientifically an instrument, but it´ll always be a kind of shadow compared to real life experience.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 0:12:15

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders and Cathulu,

I do not want to stir up things, but there are two different things in my oppinion.

1. IS the guitar louder or
2. SOUNDS the guitar louder

Nice soundhole Anders, I played one of your blanca's ceder with sound hole a few weeks ago, and it sounded, feeled and played great!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 2:00:06

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I have to assume that the physics of acoustics are terra incognita here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 2:34:15

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Nice soundport Anders!
I like the idea, but also like the "minimalistic hole" very much.

Maybe in the future it'll be an option to sale soundport inlays, just like capos.
A guitar has for example already the extra strenght around the soundport, and you can choose your inlay depending on the mood you're in for example.

For those who are in doubt of the soundport...I can't do without anymore.
A new guitar is coming in tomorrow and the first thing will be making a soundport in it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 7:21:35

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

kozz

The way the port is designed, it could not be added later on. Its totally build into the sides making it a lot stronger

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 10:37:50

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hey Anders, no worries!

I like to think I use "gedankenexperiment" with basic physics to wonder about these things. Sound is a very complex real and psycoacoustic thing. I have a little bit of sound knowledge because sometimes I have accessed noise of equipment installed in industrial environments.

In my opinion your approach is more visceral and artistic - an evolutionary and experience based approach and there is nothing wrong with that - in fact it is the way we have made progress for thousands of years passing wisdom and experience from one generation to the next, and how nature has evolved to such amazing things over millions of years.

When it gets down to it, if it looks nice and sounds good then you have achieved success, no matter what some scientist with a Fast Fourier Transform will show.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 11:11:10

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

kozz
The way the port is designed, it could not be added later on. Its totally build into the sides making it a lot stronger

Anders, thats what I liked about it, its functional and very appealing.

What I had in mind was something like beneath (in size a lot exaggerated).
I haven't thought much about the practical side of it, but you have the big part with the small tube attached to it, the innerpart and the ring inside the soundport, which define the strenght, and than you have a design which can be fitted in.
Or if you like to close the soundport, a solid piece can be fitted.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 11:57:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Fast Fourier Transform

Whats that. Does it have a soundport?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 11:59:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Kozz

is that a part from a marine toilet? Looks familiar.

I understand what you mean. Remember that the port is on a curved surface and that wood is wood.
But yes, you maybe make a design and sell it with different port fill ins so that it could be fitted to your style, mood of the day, weather etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 12:03:17

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to kozz)

Hey Kozz, no problemo...get yourself a 3.5 cm hole saw and drill away. That's what i did. Enjoy!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2010 14:05:15

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Kozz
is that a part from a marine toilet? Looks familiar.

Hahaha, it does look so....will it influence the smell?

quote:

Hey Kozz, no problemo...get yourself a 3.5 cm hole saw and drill away. That's what i did. Enjoy!

Aelos, I've done two holes on the top of one guitar, above was just a sketch not a design....
I like the idea of replacable designs though...I'll give it a try this summer when I can sit outside.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 0:27:54

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Looking at port tubes in speaker design (also known a reflex), is there a similar idea for guitars? i.e. a tube from the back to the front to boost bass frequencies, or would the extra mass mess things up?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 1:49:41

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Looking at port tubes in speaker design (also known a reflex), is there a similar idea for guitars?

Something like that has been used on the main soundhole by some builders: the tornavoz.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 2:00:12

Kubase

Posts: 72
Joined: May 20 2009

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Would a soundport on the back of the guitar be possible? That way it wouldn't even be visible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 4:24:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

It would be vissible from the back no????

And why on the back.

Simon, I have no idea about speaker designs, and boosting bass levels is not really what you want to do on a flamenco. The soundport should be there to help you hear yourself and thus be fairly neutral to the overall sound of the guitar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 4:34:40

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Kubase)

quote:

Would a soundport on the back of the guitar be possible? That way it wouldn't even be visible.

Might work if the player didn't hold the guitar in a way to obscure the port. Koss why don't you try that long as you have the saw handy. Reading the quotes of players of the Connor guitar some seem to prefer the opening shut mostly. I'm wondering if the guitar sounds so loud to them because of the bigger port rather than any advantage in reducing reflected sound pressure waves. Might be easy to test installing sound absorbent material on the sides in lieu of sound ports.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 4:56:36

Kubase

Posts: 72
Joined: May 20 2009

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Well, it wouldn't be *as* visible for those who don't like the hole on the side, from the player's perspective (I'm not in that camp by the way - and this iteration by Anders looks great imo). The question is whether the benefits of a port would still be present with it on the back. I'm no expert, but surely there would be some gains?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 7:47:20

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

The sound port is positioned for the sound to reach the ear of the player. if you want the 'reduced pressure waves' and don't want the extra presence of sound I guess it might work, but I would definitely not risk an instrument by testing it!

As some pointed out above, the way the guitar works is a complex matter, I wouldn't dare assume that a hole at the back would have the same effect as on the side. It might, but you would still loose some of the sound that goes to the player as it wouldn't be aimed toward your ears. Assuming you would place it behind the shoulder/higher bout of the guitar where it would be most unobstructed by your chest/stomach in the crossed leg sitting position.

Just my 2 cents, I'm no expert

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 9:23:24

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Escribano)

Simon, if you added a reflex port to the guitar you would have to tune it so that the projection of the resonant frequency of the guitar is the same as the resonant frequency of the reflex port.

If they are not entirely tuned together you will get what is called phase cancellation. Essentially the port sees the underside of the soundboard and the rest of the world sees the top.

if you imagine striking a drum and then looking at one side and then the other, when a wave apparently crests on one side it simultaneously valleys from the opposing side.

if you add the sound coming off the back to the sound on the front you will hear nothing because the waves will cancel.

thus, tuning the port to the resonant frequency of the soundbox is important. This is difficult because the guitar has more than one resonant frequency and is not designed to be isolative as a loudspeaker enclosure is.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/Audio/basref.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2010 21:16:37

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Well I have placed an order for a Connors spruce blanca with the humongous sound port. It comes with a closure piece held on by magnets which is good. It will take a year and a half to deliver which is not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 2:36:47

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

might seem like a long time, but it's normal for these sorts of things. congratulations. hope it turns out very nice

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 4:05:53

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to mrMagenta)

It's a bit crazy, as Lester DeVoe is building me a cedar negra now, but Connor has a ready line of blarney (his braces are moon harvested spruce!)and I bit. But the deposit is refundable and banks aren't paying interest to amount to anything so I won't be out if I change my mind. Meantime I can enjoy the anticipation. And I am looking forward to it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 4:43:52

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders,
Honestly I have to say I'm not crazy about sound port decorations, but if someone paid me I would do something I suppose. As a builder who's tried this and developed my own soundports before it started to become a growing trend, I would like to support your comments on the soundport and say that if anyone thinks you lose sound it's simply not true.

I began doing these ports in 2007 and I got laughed at or not taken seriously. Then little by little players began to open their minds and actually listen instead of prejudging the soundport. It's important to really listen and evaluate them in person. Soundports are not for everyone, but it does something subtle to the guitar that many find attractive sound wise. One thing you do get as a player is more of a sense of how your guitar sounds out front of the main soundhole and you also get a lot more overtones and tonal complexity under ear.

Builders who are brave enough to try this stuff out should be given a chance. Ole' tu Anders, but leave the mustard off the pretzel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 12:37:24

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders, the one you made for MrMagenta is beautiful. Practically and esthetically it's a big improvement on a plain hole.

You could make one like that for PdL, with a slight modification that other players might also like. Instead of the small triangular opening in the middle, you put a little cup to hold the vaseline.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 14:01:00

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Ole' tu Anders, but leave the mustard off the pretzel.

Estebanana, are you from Philly? That's the only place I thought sold soft pretzels with mustard. Also any relation to Chiquita?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 14:45:08

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Chiquita is my mujer, but I'm not from Philly.

I actually lied, I did one decorated sound port. No offense meant Anders, I'm just raw about decoration. There's a guy in my area who is a guitar decorator extrordinaire, I find his schtick of decoration to be cloying and annoying, sort of like talking up the sizzle while the steak gets cold.

Decoration in moderation.

BTW there are some ballsy historical precedents for vihuela sound hole adornment. Since I love the vihuela so much I might be able to stomach a motif derived from the vihuela.

Here's a link to the first sound port I made. It has a remnant of rosette material in played around it. Feel free to steal the idea:) ( the title says itls for sale, but the guitar has been sold )

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22056057@N06/sets/72157607805626440/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 16:40:32

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: News rom the workshop, Inlayed s... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Here's a link to the first sound port I made. It has a remnant of rosette material in played around it. Feel free to steal the idea:) ( the title says itls for sale, but the guitar has been sold )

That was one hell of a guitar Stephen. One of the easiest guitars to play I have ever seen. She was way too easy for me.

It was also the first soundport guitar I ever played. The one that convinced me to put them in my Glenn Canin guitars and started my ranting that inspired such a lovely exchange of words with Blackshear.

Hmmm..... I wonder who you are referring to around here.... who would take decoration way too far in Berkeley, CA.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2010 23:29:48