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veet
Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.
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 RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
I think they got the labels right,
Well, the first one, labeled minera, is the identical melody Camaron uses in "Sonidos Negros" which I've always seen called a taranta. And the third is the melody I've seen called minera in :
"he comprao, una botita de cartera,
ay mira lo que, he comprao.
Y con sus botones a los lados, ay.
Te pueda poner cuando te quieras,
Yo vengo de la mina carbonera, ay."
(from the solo compas levante collection)
Not that it matters all that much, it's all levante.
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Date Jan. 13 2010 16:41:45
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to veet)
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Hi Veet,
There's still some disagreement as to what the right names are. For example, the way you said, "It's all Levante," some people would say "They're all tarantas" as a general category. According to some, "Levante" includes all the slow fandangos as well, like malagueñas and granaínas, but I think that really confuses matters. Like you, I prefer to say "Levante" for the general category, although "cantes de las minas" or "cantes mineros" is probably more specific.
Anyway, talking about this stuff is fine (very interesting, actually), but without being able to hear the music it goes nowhere. I haven't got any "Solo compás" recording and I don't know which Camarón recording you're referring to. The letra you posted is usually sung por levanticas (similar to the recurring theme heard in Montoya's instrumental Rondeña).
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Date Jan. 13 2010 23:04:52
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to val)
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its also often difficult to seperate minera and taranta for me, when talking about cante, as a guitarist can accompany in different keys for cante also.
guitar solo is clear: you have different keys. F# , G#
but in cante,,,,hmm,,,, also without understanding the letras, etc., even more difficult
i think there are just some minor details, and if you don't hear much cante all the time, you can't distinguish so easy these two
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Date Jan. 14 2010 4:47:47
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Ricardo)
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Ricardo:
Ha! I knew the word rondeña was going to draw you back into this thread! 
One of Manuel Torre's two taranto recordings was originally titled "rondeña" (the label on the 78 rpm disk). There's a lot of speculation about that and Carmen Amaya's recording.
quote:
...the ending with E# before the final F#...
That's a good detail to point out because everyone does it today. I've been looking for it but haven't found it on any old recordings, so it might be a recent development.
Edit: I hadn't noticed your offer to hear that Porrina recording. Of course, bring it on man! Like I said, these conversations go nowhere if we can't hear the music! Is it the "ramo de olor" letra?
Arash, I agree that it's harder to be "tuned into" singing. Two voices might be completely different "instruments," but a guitar is a guitar, so cante is harder to recognize sometimes. Also, singers get to use different words and that's another dimension that we don't even have on the guitar.
For me, the only way to get singing styles into my head is to have some kind of intense experience. Of course, if I really like a cante and hear it a few times, that's intense enough. But in the case of the taranta I was talking about, de la Gabriela, I'd heard it a few times but never paid much attention because I don't particularly like Levante singing styles. But one day at the peña I was sitting pretty close to the singer, Paco del Pozo, and he finished a series of these cantes with that taranta. He was really straining, like his head was going to explode or something! It was pretty intense and the experience made an impression on me. Afterward someone said which cante it was and I decided to remember that name for future reference (even though I couldn't remember what he sang very well; I haven't got a great memory like that). So I found one of Pastora's many versions and it immediately took me right back to that moment in the peña. To this day I can visualize him singing that. So I'm not telling you all of this to brag or tell stories or anything. What I want to say is that if there's some initial experience, when you listen to other versions it reinforces that first experience and makes it a lot easier to hear a cante more clearly in your head. John O once posted about how, when you're learning a falseta, if you've got something else going on in your head, it seems to burn that into your memory too, along with the falseta. Maybe that works the same way.
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Date Jan. 14 2010 6:59:32
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to NormanKliman)
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hey don't bust your brain over it man! Porrina does everything with his characteristic melisma, in the end changing the melody so it all resembles his famous fandangos. To me he just was faking it, and in the end he calls it his own thing, even announced it! He hits the wrong notes for the guitarist to give A major, he doesn't make use of G# he goes to G natural and stops there! And other things. But the range is ok for taranto, he is just doing his own thing with the letra I guess.
But who knows, maybe you will find a note for note other version of this that he is copying, but my guess is in La Union, the mineros that sing would think he was faking this one.  Oddly I remember a guy in Rito y Geografia that WAS an actual miner, and singer, and he had the same sunglasses and hair doo as Porrina, a total rip off.
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Date Jan. 14 2010 13:05:26
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Minera (I think) (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
hey don't bust your brain over it man!
Sorry, that's like asking a cat not to get excited about an empty paper bag!
quote:
he had the same sunglasses and hair doo as Porrina, a total rip off.
I used to think Porrina was blind because of those big sunglasses but also because of the impossible color combinations that he used to wear. I mean, like a bright red shirt, an orange tie, salmon-colored pants and a yellow jacket (with a bright red carnation on his lapel). White shoes and belt, of course.
So I mentioned that one day as a casual comment to my first teacher, just the part about Porrina being blind, and he thought it was hilarious. I guess he filled in the blanks about the clothing, because I didn't mention that until after he'd laughed himself silly. You should have seen the look he gave me for a split second, like he wasn't sure if it was some kind of clever joke or just me being naive!
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Date Jan. 15 2010 3:15:32
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