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What determines the "growl"?   You are logged in as Guest
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kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

What determines the "growl"? 
.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 1:15:11
 
Kubase

Posts: 72
Joined: May 20 2009
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
Dunno, but my Anders blanca growls like a doberman, so I bet he'll be able to tell you. (Anders, not the doberman).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 4:50:42
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
I get my growl from 2 aspects of making. Building a light instrument (not entirely nessacary but i like it) and the set up.

Having the strings close to the soundboard around 8-9mm and also having a nice low action 3mm on the bass and 2-2.5mm on the treble depending on who is playing it.

the percussive growl is primarly helped by a small rattle on the frets by the strings

hope this helps

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 6:32:28
 
stratos13

 

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
My new guitar defines the term

Really
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 6:54:16
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
i don't know but guitars with too much "growl", need to be played more softly and carefully than those with less "growl" and i think for mic and recording and stage performance, etc..., they have their "dissadvantages". i like the crisp and fresh sound and that "growl" too......but too much "growl" is sometimes annoying and more like distorted e-guitar where you can't hear the nuances, etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 7:13:06
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Stephen Eden) 
Thanks guys for the reactions.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 8:25:50
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
quote:

growl


I don't know exactly what to imagine as a "growl".
I have two negras now:

The first one is made of pau ferro and spruce
and sounds quite fruity in the basses with sparkling trebles, but isn't very loud.

The second one is made of indian rosewood and spruce and sounds more growly if I get the term correctly. It has a deeper, louder sound with a least bit of buzzing underneath the sound of the the low E string

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 12:43:37
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to bursche) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

quote:

growl


I don't know exactly what to imagine as a "growl".


i guess what he means is this aggressive sound, like here at the beginning of this video, or @0.50 , or.....



mostly heard on blanca guitars

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 14:08:07
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Arash) 
quote:

i guess what he means is this aggressive sound, like here at the beginning of this video, or @0.50 , or.....


,,,thats what I mean, the growliness in the basses whilst keeping the subtleties in the threbles...
Its hard to describe...I like the basic tone to fade away pretty quickly and the overtones last for a little longer....
But I must admit it all depends on the mood you're in...some sparkling sound might fit better another time...

But does the finishing has a role in it? If so, it might be considering a FP guitar above a laquered one...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2009 16:15:40
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
Adjusting the growl is pretty easy. You can buy a growl tuner at www.d*ck.biz

It comes with a manual. Easy stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2009 3:07:38
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
i always thought that if you build the guitar with this set of knifes, you will get that sound, which is like a growl from a tiger.

but of course, i am not a guitar builder,,,so maybe you should follow the advice from anders and consult some d.icks :)



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2009 4:02:11
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Arash) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

quote:

growl


I don't know exactly what to imagine as a "growl".


i guess what he means is this aggressive sound, like here at the beginning of this video, or @0.50 , or.....



mostly heard on blanca guitars


The You-Tube guitar has a certain low string height to provide what I call rajo, or a flamenco buzzing sound. But the growl from a good guitar comes from the top timber and fan brace pattern, and this has to be built into the instrument by the maker. The maker's own voicing style will procduce a growling nasal sound that comes from the bowels of the earth, and this is fairly far removed in comparison to the You-Tube guitar. However, the low string height will add to the over-all operation of the guitar, but you don't want it to rattle too much as this takes away the musicality of the guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2009 9:43:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
That dry growly sounds comes from two things. The back and sides wood and the side to side motion of the bridge.

Rosewood is more bell like and it harder to get it to be dry sounding. Cypress and other woods with similar density and, well dryness, work better for that sound. Structure wise it's the way the bridge is supported on either side by the top and how much or how little resistance there is to the up and down motion of the bridge in a side to side axis. A diagram might help.

Think of the bridge as a brace stabilizing the middle of the top. It let's the area between the wings of the bridge and edges of the lower bout be resistant or non resistant to up and down movement. It's that up a down movement which determines growl. Usually fostered by, but not always, leaving the area between the lower bout edge and the bridge wings open and free of a fan brace. Some growly guitars can have seven or nine fans, but usually the top is thinned to let the side to side movement be freer.

Metaphorically the bridge is like a bird flying between the edges of the top. If the air is turbulent and moving a lot the birds wings will cause more humming and vibrating. If the top is more restrained the birds wings will be create a more bell like sound.

How do you do it? Magic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2009 15:37:29
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Arash) 
quote:

i always thought that if you build the guitar with this set of knifes, you will get that sound, which is like a growl from a tiger.

but of course, i am not a guitar builder,,,so maybe you should follow the advice from anders and consult some d.icks :)


LOL. i want those for my birthday

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2009 22:35:16
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
IMHO, to much growl is undesired.

We all have our periods of wanting something new. Might be a dryer sounding guitar, one with a lot of growl, a trebly one, a bassy one etc.
My experience is that most of us go back to a well balanced instrument because thats what works the best on most styles of playing and its the one that makes you devellop you personal playing style the most.
A unbalanced guitar, which could be one with to much growl gets annoying in the long run. I have had various clients who had searched for the dryest sounding guitar. When they found it, they were happy and then half a year later or so, they sold it and asked me to make them a well balanced guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 1:03:34
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
Thanks again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 1:40:04
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: kozz

Thanks again.

Summarized in a nutshell:
- But the growl from a good guitar comes from the top timber and fan brace pattern, and this has to be built into the instrument by the maker.
- That dry growly sounds comes from two things. The back and sides wood and the side to side motion of the bridge.
- the percussive growl is primarly helped by a small rattle on the frets by the strings.

Perhaps the obvious, but with a non-massproduced handbuiild guitar I can assume attention has been paid to all of this to get the desired sound, good playabillity etc (Call it balanced, some perhaps more sparkling some more dark etc.)


The guitar is a unique gift to those who enjoy it's style and voicing. There is no set rule for all guitars but to find the one you enjoy to play. I find this style to be good for its intended purpose but not very musical when it comes to musical expression.......

I try and build a guitar with a melody but aggressive as well.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 6:31:59
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

The guitar is a unique gift to those who enjoy it's style and voicing. There is no set rule for all guitars but to find the one you enjoy to play. I find this style to be good for its intended purpose but not very musical when it comes to musical expression.......

I try and build a guitar with a melody but aggressive as well.





Tom were you referencing this because you built his guitar, or as an example of a growling but not musical guitar?

For quite a while this has been one of my favorite youtube posts. I love her cante and his pulgar and aire.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 7:50:38
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to orsonw) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

The guitar is a unique gift to those who enjoy it's style and voicing. There is no set rule for all guitars but to find the one you enjoy to play. I find this style to be good for its intended purpose but not very musical when it comes to musical expression.......

I try and build a guitar with a melody but aggressive as well.





Tom were you referencing this because you built his guitar, or as an example of a growling but not musical guitar?

For quite a while this has been one of my favorite youtube posts. I love her cante and his pulgar and aire.


I can build a guitar like that with its character and gutsy voicing but I put less rago or low string contact with the board to make it a little more musical. This guitar is old school, similar to Nino Ricardo's old 1955 Sobrinos de Esteso, I have a very similar top pattern in my shop that I build with, after Faustino Conde 1968. It has this kind of sound.

And No, I did not build the guitar for La Susi's brother, on this you tube. I think it might be an older Jerez builder. But sound is sound, and I can match this closely enough to get the propio sello of his guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 8:31:56
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear




i love this sound.

or this:

EDIT: was wrong Link:




not so much "growl" at all.
very "gentle and descreet".
excellent for acompaniment (and IMO, for solo too - check out 1.44 )
these guitars can be "tormented", without squall in pain

but i know exactly what kozz is looking for.
i used to like the same amount of "growlness" (if there is no such a word, i invent it . )... not so long ago.

but taste for sound is like taste for music , i guess.
it can change.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 9:02:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
Flamenco guitars should have an afterburner switch that you can throw in order to make them go into bloody howl overdrive. The rest of the time they sound edgy, but are tame. Then when some dancer gives you 'the eye', you can hit the overdrive switch and give it right back to her in mega growl rasgueados. Take that wench!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 10:09:45
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

hit the overdrive switch


Something I like about indian rosewood (I can't afford RIO so far).
You can just add some extra power and what you get is a decent explosive sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2009 14:06:41
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2009 0:37:03
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to kozz) 
[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2009 6:25:06
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to kozz) 
read the post where I said "it's the witch not the wand".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2009 9:42:00
 
stratos13

 

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:



it's the witch not the wand

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2009 11:21:19
 
Kubase

Posts: 72
Joined: May 20 2009
 

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

So it seems its all in the guitar construction details huh? explosiveness, rajo, growl, harmonics .... all in the tools and nothing in the hands ... the tocaor has little to do with it. lol ok sure thing .....

and this flamenco nerd analysis of how great a guitar sounds like from youtube recordings ... what about amplification, EQ, sound wizardry etc that goes into the production of the vids and manipulation of the output sound.

Anyone knowledgeable about guitars knows implicitly that the exact same guitar can sound VERY different in different hands .... but this kind of talk doesn't help sell guitars .....

... who needs 10+ hours of practice a day when you just need "THE" guitar (someone should have told Paco)

p.s. this is not a reply to "kozz" but a reply to this entire thread.


It might pay to:

a) Read threads before replying.

or

b) Become less stupid.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2009 14:36:17
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Guest) 
Nealf,
that was not the point.
Along the path people "discover" things which might be for other persons a-given-fact.
For 36 year I haven't even looked at guitars so now I play the guitar for a year now.

A lot more to discover, and yes thats technique but also mechanics etc. Just out of pure curiousity.
The good thing is that I found out that there's a lot more to discover with playing techniques....instead of that being told by somebody makes it worthfull in its own way.

But it doesn't mean the search for "growl" has ended....it just has to fit in the total picture which I am just discovering, and is part of the fun of playing guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2009 2:29:17
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Kubase) 
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2009 8:46:50
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: What determines the "growl&... (in reply to Guest) 
Quite right nealf....get stuck right into him, son. No need to take that kinda talk!

Kubase...I wouldn't tolerate that kind of language from nealf or anybody!

Fight...fight...fight...fight...! Hooray!!


Ah! schooldays....



Myself, I've always thought that trying to describe the sound of a guitar is a bit like trying to describe a certain shade of a colour?

"No...not as light as that, but with more hue and a bit more pazzass and oomph..with a vermilion feeling..."

(Oh yes... of course...I've entirely captured your drift.....ahem )

A bit like the Wine freaks...

"I'm getting Mulberries and dark fruit and summer days here... and a hint of lemon to leave a clean finish..."

(Fellow TV Critic)
"F off you b*astard! That Mulberry is more Cranberry you arse...Do you actually know ANYTHING about wine you jumped up fart....Makes me want to KILL you..you c*nt!..."



cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2009 10:36:11
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