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What do you think of?????
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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 RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney)
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TO STONEY -
I was a friend of Juan Serrano for years, and in my opinion - and that of the world of flamenco in general - he is one of the greatest flamenco guitarists of all time. Yes, he is "dead on traditional," but just where is the "incoherent mess?" Is there a clip I could look at where he is playing an incoherent mess? That would be very interesting. I would honestly like to see it. As for his method books, far from avoiding them, I would highly recommend them to anyone – clear, concise, fully understandable, and with traditional material that he himself has always played, not some kind of simplified, by the numbers falsetas.
TO DOITSUJIN –
If you find Juan Serrano "boring" it's probably because you find traditional concert flamenco in general boring. This seems to be borne out by your other comments, for example about Paco Pena. Paco Pena is an outstanding concert style flamenco guitarist, with all the technique in the world, who plays fine traditional flamenco, and plays it with feeling too, which is something a lot of concert flamenco guitarists don't do. As for Juan Martin, you should only have his technique. Incidentally, with regard to his "pseudo Spanish accent," the word "pseudo" means "false, not real, pretended." Are you saying that he is putting on a fake Spanish accent? I didn't know that. That is most interesting. I wonder why he would do such a thing. Do you have any reason to believe that that is the case, or any evidence to back that up. I would be interested in seeing that. Incidentally, it is my understanding that he was born and raised in Malaga, which would make Spanish his native language. How does a native Spanish speaker put on a "fake Spanish accent?"
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Dec. 15 2009 19:30:45
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
As for Juan Martin, you should only have his technique. Incidentally, with regard to his "pseudo Spanish accent," the word "pseudo" means "false, not real, pretended." Are you saying that he is putting on a fake Spanish accent? I didn't know that. That is most interesting. I wonder why he would do such a thing. Do you have any reason to believe that that is the case, or any evidence to back that up. I would be interested in seeing that.
warning: this could be contentious....
my first post on this foro was asking if anyone could prove the persistent rumours about "Juan Martin" either way.... it seems noone can, but here goes anyway....
i have known a number of people who knew "Juan Martin" in London in the late Sixties and/or Seventies, before he made it big, when they assure me he spoke with a south east England/London accent (someone else told me they saw a video of him where he spoke like this, so maybe there is evidence somewhere?).
At this time they all knew him as "Johnny Martin from Brighton".
Up until quite recently there was someone on his Wikipedia discussion page who claimed they went to school with him in East Sussex, when he was known as "Johnny Martin", but this page seems to have disappeared....
It doesn't actually say on his website, or in any of his books or biography or promotional material where he was born, it just says "native of Andalucía". You can bet if he really was born in Malaga he would trumpet it VERY LOUDLY from the rooftops, but it doesn't, it is vague.... and this is as close as anyone can get to "proving" that he isn't quite who or what he would like us all to believe he is.
Someone else told me they think he was originally from Gibralter, because he speaks Spanish like an Andaluz, which apparently is quite typical for Gibralterians.
To me none of this makes any difference to his music or his teaching materials, and they should be taken as they are and judged on their own merits.
But I think that his music is not judged on it's own merits compared to the rest of flamenco, but on what his promotional material tells people (who don't know any different) they are listening to....
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Date Dec. 16 2009 2:00:54
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney)
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With respect to Juan Martin's "fake Spanish accent," besides being a musician I was also an actor. As with all actors, one of the things I studied was foreign accents. Any given part may call for that, so you have to be able to do it. Also sometimes for commercials. There is nothing more difficult as an actor than putting on a fake accent and making it sound convincing. You only have to watch movies, TV, etc. to hear some dreadful fake accents. The first accent actors almost always learn is Spanish, because it is so widespread a language. I am American born, but of Spanish descent, and spoke fluent Spanish from the age of two or so. Still, naturally my English had no trace of any accent, so when I had to learn to put on a Spanish accent, even though I spoke Spanish, it was just as difficult for me to put on a Spanish accent, because Spanish was not my native language. So I am attuned to the nuances of accents, and I can generally tell a fake one from a real one, though you can never be entirely certain. I would only say that based on my experience, if Juan Martin's accent is fake, then he missed the boat – he should have gone on stage as an actor instead of musician.
But apart from that the question would arise – if his accent is fake, why would he bother? As I can say from personal experience, learning an accent takes years of study, just as learning almost anything else does. Why go through all that – how does it help him? His skill as a flamenco guitarist speaks for itself – as does the quality of his instructional materials. Would it really make enough difference just to pass himself off as Spanish to go through all that rigamarole?
Though entries in Wikipedia always have to be taken with a grain of salt, here is Wikipedia's entry on Juan Martin:
Juan Martín
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Juan Cristóbal Martín (born 1948, Málaga) is a Spanish flamenco guitarist [1][2] and an author of flamenco guitar method books.
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Career
Martín started learning the guitar at the age of six. In his early twenties he moved to Madrid to study under Nino Ricardo and Paco de Lucía[3].He played in clubs in Málaga, Seville and Granada. One of his first recordings was "Picasso Portraits" (1981). Each section is a depiction of a painting by Pablo Picasso. Although it was not released until the 1990s, he recorded a track with Rory Gallagher in 1984 (on the album, Wheels Within Wheels). Also in 1984 his track "Love Theme from The Thorn Birds" reached number 10 in the UK Singles Chart.[4] He recorded with Herbie Hancock in 1987 and has played on stage with Miles Davis.[5][6]
After establishing himself amongst the Gitanos of Andalucia, Juan Martín released the successful 'El Arte Flamenco De La Guitarra' which was printed in both English and Spanish. It has been reprinted seven times in various languages. The book can be bought with or without an accompaniment cd.
He divides his time between Málaga and London. One of his sons, Carlos, learned the guitar from an early age and has since experimented with fusions between electronica and flamenco under the alias of DJ Carlito,[7] specialising in drum and bass
Martín has been voted one of the top three guitarists in the world in the magazine, Guitar Player. He has an English wife, Helen. They have a family business called Flamencovision.[8][9]
This article claims that he studied with Paco de Lucia. If so, surely Paco would know if Juan Martin was actually English, and is putting on the world by passing himself off as Spanish, fake accent and all. Anything is possible - it just seems highly improbable.
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 16 2009 7:47:06
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
With respect to Juan Martin's "fake Spanish accent," etc. etc.
well, i dunno, the whole thing seems pretty strange....
....but i would have thought, as i said, that if he really was born in Malaga he would say so on his own website. I did just check Wiki and it doesn't seem to say the stuff you quote anymore. I actually queried the Wiki info a while ago and the source of the statement that he was born in Malaga came from a newspaper article (maybe they saw his publicity and translated "early days in Malaga" into "born in Malaga" as i'm sure we are all intended to....), do you believe everything you read in newspapers? I know i don't. i can't actually find anything concrete, anywhere, to back this up, and we all know that all flamenco artists state where they were born on their biographies.
I'm not saying his accent is fake, maybe when he was young if he really did live in the UK he "faked" an English accent to fit in.... who knows?
There are just too many stories from people who claim to have known him in London for it all to be just made up....
quote:
This article claims that he studied with Paco de Lucia.
i think the word "claims" is most significant here.... have you seen the photo of JM sitting between Paco and Ramon grinning at the camera while they both looked the other way...?
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Date Dec. 16 2009 8:06:57
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