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RE: Grisha tries out a Conde Felipe V (Guitar Salon) + other guitars
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 RE: Grisha tries out a Conde Felipe ... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Bear in mind, this is just a completely personal point of view.
IMO, probably the most important thing in a guitar is the playability.
I've only ever had the chance to try three guitars which just felt like magic...
It was difficult to produce an ugly sound from them and the strings felt really soft under your LH and reassuringly firm under your RH.
Everything you played sounded good...you could have been totally absorbed in playing those guitars from morning until night.
Totally responsive.
Sadly, two were owned by playing professionals and one was a Valencia made guitar at a decent price, but I just didn't have the money at the time.
To me, playability is the MAIN factor in a guitar....yet guitar makers and their customers seem to regard "boom, tinkle and volume" as being the mark of a great guitar. 
The "High Volume Level" guitars that are so coveted, to me seem "harsh" and emphasise every squeak and nail click and string slide going and are completely redundant these days, due to the ubiquitous use of amplification.
By "Boom and Tinkle" I mean resounding basses and trebley trebles which makes me think of the early days of "High Fidelity", when someone would buy an expensive stereo system and set the Bass and Treble controls to maximum.
A lot of the cheaper made guitars have IMO very good qualities for a Flamenco guitar....ie short sustain, percussive sound, with a well balanced (albeit "duller") sound than a lot of the so-called top makes.
I'm not saying top makes are bad, but just that I think they are aiming at the wrong thing IMO.
Then again...you have to give the customers what they want...
And Boom, Tinkle and Volume have always impressed the amateurs I've seen around the guitar shops anyway.
As I said, a completely personal view.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Dec. 12 2009 12:17:28
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Grisha tries out a Conde Felipe ... (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
To me, playability is the MAIN factor in a guitar....yet guitar makers and their customers seem to regard "boom, tinkle and volume" as being the mark of a great guitar.
Ron, I´ve been here for YEARS, always saying the feel of the guitar is the most important. If the guitar doesnt suit you, it might sound good in some other players hands but not in yours. Playability it THE thing and all good players go for that.
A typical example is when a player starts finding out the the strings on his/her guitar "disappears" when playing hard picados etc. the they look for something a bit harder, where the feeling stays where they want it. Yeah, sound is important, but feel is a lot more important
I agree with you in that there´s a lot of talking about bright trebles and boomy basses and I also agree that its not very interesting. A lot of the persons talking like that, being players or makers, dont know very much about guitars. I personally like a bright guitar, but a good strong dynamic midrange and a clear separation of the notes is extremely important.
Volume is always good but not if its on the expense of playability.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Dec. 12 2009 12:55:49
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Grisha tries out a Conde Felipe ... (in reply to Arash)
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Ok, I´m back with one of favorites, Pulsation. Thats one of the most important things in a guitar that suits you and its the one you cant adjust because its built into the guitar.
In popular words I would call it stiffness or softness of a guitar. Its something you feel in you right hand, it has to do with how you produce sound. Its also something you cannot adjust by changing string tension. Yes a little bit, but a stiff guitar feels stiff with low tension strings and a soft guitar feels soft with high tension strings.
Pulsation you control mainly by thickness of soundboard and how heavy its braced. These two things interact and also affect the sound of the guitar. If the soundboard is to thick, the guitar might be trebly but also with lack of nuance and dynamics in the basses and midrange. If to thin it becomes bassy and with lack of dynamics in the trebles and high midrange. Guitars with a to strong bracing system tend to have this unpleasant nosy sound.
There´s no right pulsation. It depends on the player and some pro´s like stiff guitars and some like soft guitars. From my experience, a typical stiff guitar is a Conde and a typical soft one is a Reyes. So you see, that you can find all kinds of pulsations in all categorys and its a waste of time to discuss which is best etc, because its so personal.
One of the problems with the internet info you get about good guitars is that the info comes from people who knows very little about guitars, hence the enourmous amount of info about sound and very little about playability. There are lots of "clever" persons writing about how good this and that guitar sounds without being able to really test it and play it with a good strong flamenco technique. If you dont have that techique, you wont be able to test the guitar fully. Its like testing a formula 1 car under speed limitations. Everyone with money can buy a good guitar, pluck the strings and write a raving review on the internet. If you do so many times some people will consider you to know a lot about good guitars, but the only info you get is a personal comparision on how good guitars sound when plucked.
I hope you understand what I mean with "plucking". thats something that has very little to do with playing flamenco. Flamencos dont pluck strings.
So what has this to do with a standard beginner or intermediate flamenco player: Its difficult to get it right the first time. Thats why guitars are being sold. Some people want to think they have a strong right hand and buy or order a stiff guitar (macho type) what they have is maybe an uncontrolled right hand and so, the guitar they buy will always be overpowering them.
My personal goal is to build a guitar which is just right of course. but its relative, so it might be just a tad to soft or stiff for someone.
Now I´m being very honest with you guys, and please give me credit for that because its not what is normally considered good for business and very few luthiers are saying that their instruments might not be correct for all players. In fact most luthiers are very afraid of talking about how their guitars work and thats leads us back to Rons dilema: all this talking about sound. Its so much easyer to talk about the right sound than he right feel of a guitar and this leeds to this misunderstanding that if you have a guitar with a good sound (relative as well) you have a guitar that´ll always be perfect for you
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Date Dec. 13 2009 1:48:38
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kozz
Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL
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RE: Grisha tries out a Conde Felipe ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Thanks Anders for your clear description, ofcourse honesty is always much appreciated and credits are givin to you for that.
I am not saying it makes it easier, but the considerations when looking for a new guitar take a whole new path.
To be honest I was thinking, the more expensive the better. And since I am not so pleased anymore with my Juan Hernandez, especially since I tried some hardtension strings on it, I already saw the money flying out of my pockets (again).
Let me see if I understand you correctly about Pulsation. As you wrote, it is build into the guitar and various parameters contribute to that. Then the next part is how we, as a person, react to that. One might like this sound, the other person likes another sound, but the interaction should feel right.
Once the interaction is comfortable it is easier to produce the tone you prefer?
The holiday is arriving soon and I will spent some time in guitarshops just so see if there's anything of this noticable for me.
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Date Dec. 13 2009 3:15:37
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orsonw
Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London
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RE: Grisha tries out a Conde Felipe ... (in reply to kozz)
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Thanks for bringing up the pulsation issue Anders. You mentioned it here before and I found it very helpful. I think it's a very important point.
I have bought three guitars over the last 6 months and whilst they all sound different they all have what might be called stiff pulsation (and all blancas) so I guess that must be what I like! I have a Conde, Sanchis Lopez, Bernal. They all need quite a lot of energy to really wake them up and get the air moving.
There is certainly difference between them sonically but they are all well seperated, balanced and have good solid mids, which for me is important. When one is playing with lots of people and noise around it's that solid midrange punch that I really miss if it's not there.
I find I get used to the guitar's sound that I am playing. I'm not saying they're the same but I produce a similar sound or aire on them all, if you understand me.
It was very useful for me to spend 6 months really exploring guitars and what I liked. I tried many in the Uk, Spain and in Germany. I know more what suits me and more than anything that fantasy of the 'perfect' guitar has been removed. I think if one hasn't tried - Reyes, Conde etc.. it's easy to imagine they are supernatural and from another planet than the guitar one already owns. Now I know this isn't true. I'm not saying some guitars aren't better than others but just that it's better to spend time practicing and learning to produce sound and aire than dreaming of the perfect guitar.
A couple of others things I've learnt-
-Better to make a guitar more of what it already is by changing strings, action etc.. than trying to give it another personality
-I won't ever buy a guitar without trying it or maybe another made by the luthier.
-Expensive or well known makers don't always produce guitars superior to cheaper, less known makers.
-Scale length, nut width don't seem to be an indicator of how easy or difficult a guitar will be to play or how hard the string tension will be- further underling Anders pulsation comments.
- God only knows who made your Conde.
PS Anders thanks for all your help the last few months. I'm done guitar hunting for now but I hope one day to try one of your guitars and perhaps buy one.
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Date Dec. 13 2009 8:21:58
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Grisha tries out a Conde Felipe ... (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
Id take the Ramirez. Maybe if the Reyes would have been a blanca, i would have preferred that over the Ramirez. And the Conde over the Reyes if that had been a blanca 
blanca fetishist !
but if you close your eyes and don't look at back and sides and don't read the description,,,, the conde was the most "blanca" of the negras imo :-) , no ?
maybe because Koa is not so dark as palisanto and more like cypress? haha....
but interesting that everyone prefers something different......we got votes for all....except "poor" tedoro perez, which received no votes (was nice too, but compared to others, not outstanding)
but you are right, it also depends on strings, distance to MIC, etc...
now the question is, which guitar had the best playability ?
thats the question which only grisha can answer, if he should stop by !
I did like the Perez the best because I think it fit his technique and certain things he liked about a guitar the best. There was that certain character I liked, that was very different from the other guitars.
I have a Reyes style negra I'm just finishing up in my shop that has more staying power than the Reyes' that were demonstrated but I made it that way so it could be used as a cross-over if necessary.
This particular instrument will probably go to the RE Brune shop for sale.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Dec. 16 2009 8:29:45
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