Beginners Challenge - Bulerias Winter 2010

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1] 2 3 4 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

Beginners Challenge - Bulerias Winte...

OK, so we have sufficient interest! This is the official thread. Please post on this thread if you have any questions or comments. Apologies this has taken me so long to get to it.

I want to encourage all beginners to give this a go. You never know if there is going to be another beginner's challenge anytime soon... I fear there will be an eventual ennui that will develop if it has not done so a bit already and challenges may go on hiatus for a while until enthusiasm builds up again. Having said that, if you are new to the forum, you should make at least 10 posts and be a member of the forum for at least 1 month before you sign-on . If you have been a long time lurker, than we can waive the posting requirement. Basically the idea is that POACHING the challenge from people who are not interested in flamenco or don't care to be a member of the forum is not fair on the judges time and everyone else.

There has been some controversy regarding challenges, I would like this one to be clean and everyone respects everyones effort and the judging results should be considered sancrosant, immutable and faultless.

How do you know if you are a beginner? I suggest that this should take you about a month to get under your fingers, and then a month to fine tune enough to record it to your satisfaction. This is based on a realistic practice scenario for people with real jobs and a real life!

Basically you will know if you are a beginner or not by listening to the other challenges and gauging your own skills and abilities from there.

If we get too many subscribers to this challenge, we may opt to split the judging to keep the judges work to a realistic level, even though that may have some impact on the results. Future subscriptions should determine this course of action.

Rules

- The beginners challenge is Ron's bulerias falseta in the missionary position: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=116695&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
- All entries must be submitted by Monday February 1 - 09:00 London / GMT time. That is the 24 hour clock - i.e. 9:00AM. Ron has kindly volunteered to receive and upload the entries. Each participant will get a PM or email from Ron indicating where to send their submission.
- Your entry will be coded by a city name of your choosing. That will keep everyone anonymous. Don't use your home town goes without saying...
- You must use a compas track or metronome to keep time and this must be audible in your recording.
- Introduction to Ron's falseta is with a few compases - a maximum of 5. The number you select and compas choice is your own.
- Outro is also a few compases - no more than 5. Ditto above.

Participants
in order of apperance to date (to be updated as more participants come on)
Cathulu
Minordjango - Out
Louis_B
Ailsa - Out
Gummy
rObbie - Out
fevictor
Ashod
Mike_Kinney - Out
Veet
bhandras
Isnyman

Judges
Confirmed to Date in order of appearance:

Jimi Hendrix
Edguerin
at_leo_87 (Anthony)
gj Montgomery
MrMagenta
Doitsujin
Pimiento
Ricardo
ToddK
Jason (tentative due to his shedule)

Interested judges are welcome to subscribe at any time, please advise at your leisure. Anyone can be a judge except for a competitor. A real push to get judges will be made after New Years. Judges can post results to the challenge entries as they get to them. Judging will close within one week of the entry of the challenges - closing date to be confirmed closer to the close of the challenge. Judges should listen and judge independently without reviewing other judges responses, but that is left to the judges honour and discretion.

Judging should be on the old saws:

Compas aka Timing max 10 points
Technique max 10 points
Aire max 10 points
Total = 30 points

Judging will close on Thursday February 4 - 24:00 London / GMT time. That should give 3 full days to review the entries and provide scores and close things up in a timely fashion.

Resources

Many thanks to Anthony and Anders!
tabs here
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119033&appid=3&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#119036
As requested, here you have the loop:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119278&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
I have uploaded some videos of me (Anders) playing the challenge falseta with a metronome and with a loop:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119564&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Prizes

First prize will win

Ricardo's CD
3 Months Lessons on flamenco-lessons.com

Thanks to everyone in advance for volunteering their time and effort on this challenge!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2009 15:04:33

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Uh oh, I should have already been working on it!!!

It's gonna be fun. Hopefully with the holidays, people will have some off time to get it together.
I already have the CD but it's the thought that counts right?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2009 17:39:55

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Great stuff Cathulu! Im very excited to be a part of this challenge and compete with a fellow Vancouverite! I appreciate your time and attention to detail, as well as the CD for the winner...should be fun!

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2009 17:48:36

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

tabs here
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119033&appid=3&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#119036

videos coming soon

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2009 20:06:36

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

ok, edited videos here:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119038&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#119038

next up, some compas loops

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2009 20:55:01

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to at_leo_87)

Great resources, thanks Anthony

_____________________________

http://www.flamencojourney.com
http://www.myspace.com/flamencojourney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 0:46:14

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

sounds good, i'm volunteering to be a judge...

please everyone try to participate, practicing for these challenges is great for your playing!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 8:10:54

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Wow cathulu!

What a great and clear starting post!

In a way, I'm embarrassed that my basic falseta has attracted so much of an interest.

But, thinking about it...

If you can't at least understand and play THAT.....

Then there's little point really to moving on to something more advanced...

Thanks Leo for correcting the pitch...

(It's now 59MB and the original was 3MB...but who cares now that we have broadband..

)

Thanks to all you folks who have faith in this Forum and want to make it a learning resource for all those souls isolated from Spain and in their own bedrooms somewhere in the World.

You might even have given encouragement enough to change the life course of someone who will become the next Flamenco Superhero!

That is what we don't know and IMO, that is what makes the Forum so exciting!

Respect your efforts mucho!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 10:54:16

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Here is Ron's comments from the earlier thread, which might be helpful and people should keep in the back of their mind.

Thanks very much to Anthony for the resources, they are beyond the call of duty!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Folks,

If you really want to use that falseta, personally I would begin with a few compas cycles of basic Jerez style strumming since the falseta is already a sort of "intro" anyway.
(Listen to Orson's version and also Henrik's Jerezana opening chords.)

Everybody could just choose their own strumming pattern intro, which would add more interest to the challenge, since you would have to do a bit of research and listening.

Oh...best way to pick it up is to practise the slow version as solidly and carefully as you can. Keep practising at this speed and tapping your foot, so the rhythm of the falseta really sinks in.
After that it is fairly easy to speed it up to anything you want.

(Oh..you could maybe use "Flamenco Master" at first, just to confirm to yourself which beats the salient notes are landing on if you are unsure.)

The F# note on the low E string is on the 12 beat.
That's the important one and the one you should be aiming at.
The first few notes are just "lead in" ones.

I actually play it a bit too fast, but that's because I was really getting annoyed with the recording program keeping freezing up and I just wanted to get it over with before it decided to hang up again ....it would probably sound better played a bit slower IMO.

Personally, I wouldn't over complicate the challenge by adding more falsetas, since the whole point of the exercise is to become more confident about Bulerias rhythm and feeling how a falseta fits in to the compás.

For learning, simple is always better. You learn much more IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 10:54:20

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to Ron.M)

Thanks Ron. That falseta of yours is really good and while it is not super tough to get under the fingers, getting the timing right with intro compas so that it sounds organic and natural is the tough bit, at least for me.

If I can do that and then add to the excitement with some outro compas that leads to another future falseta that is not part of this challenge, then I for one will be ecstatic and on my way to a decent bulerias that I can play at the guitar shop and blow away the punters.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 10:59:24

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

de nada! i'm actually learning from helping out and transcribing and stuff.

quote:

It's now 59MB and the original was 3MB...but who cares now that we have broadband..

well, it's actually over 100 mb uncompressed! but i couldn't find any other setting for avi format that will allow a smaller size. oh well, the beauty of broadband.

so for compas loops, do we need any? what tempo?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 12:08:42

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to at_leo_87)

I like the idea of choosing our own loops but obviously we will need guidance on required speed range. A generic one should also be available.

Ron says he played it too fast in his opinion. I agree that we should slow it slightly at least.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2009 14:50:05

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Just a thought: I'm sure this is a non issue and the judges will take this into account, but some of don't have flamenco guitars...in fact, some of us just have cheapy classical guitars that don't sound very flamenco. I just hope we don't get penalized precious points for not having enough aire !!

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 7:36:27

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to fevictor)

quote:

Just a thought: I'm sure this is a non issue and the judges will take this into account, but some of don't have flamenco guitars...in fact, some of us just have cheapy classical guitars that don't sound very flamenco. I just hope we don't get penalized precious points for not having enough aire !!

when i started learning, i used a classical guitar too. i think it actually helped me because i had to train my hands to get a flamenco sound instead of depend on the guitar.

i wouldn't worry too much... just beat flamenco into that guitar until it surrenders!

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 10:11:17

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to at_leo_87)

I agree there Leo,

A lot of the sound comes from the way the notes are played (attack etc).

It's not so much the tone of the guitar, but the "tone" of the player IMO.

I've filed down a Classical till it began to buzz and it was OK...but you've constantly got to "coax" it.

But nothing fits to the technique more than a good Flamenco guitar!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 10:29:07

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to at_leo_87)

I have a nice one from the solo compas CD at 200 bpm, but not sure if I can upload that one? I am starting at 100 bpm (1/2 speed), gonna nail that and keep upping the speed.

I think a slow bulerias is around 140 bpm?

I suggest everyone plays at the tempo they feel most comfortable. I for one am not going to play faster than I can play it clean. Been there, done that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 19:34:20

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Thanks Jimi

Ron, I assume you will also judge this one?

And Todd, I assume you can do it also as a make-up for last time? My goal is to have you evaluate one of my uploads, so far you have eluded me pretty good! I am getting better, promise!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2009 19:36:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

140bpm is a VERY slow bulerias. I wouldnt call it bulerias. And if I was judging I would give it a 0. Most bulerias are played 220 - 240bpm

You should pick a loop with a minimum of 180bpm. Thats where it starts sounding like bulerias. For the challenge it should be 200bpm IMO. If you cant learn it to that speed, then its because you have chosen a piece which is to difficult. Bulerias on beginners level is about groove and not about fancy falsetas

Also, IMO, dont use the Solo compás loop. Its has clearly a 12 beat counting and IMO its all wrong for this purpose and will make you all go mental and start counting instead of playing and grooving. Trust me, I´ve seen it happen sooooooo many times. If you have followed some of the bulerias counting threads here on the foro, you´ll see that the huge majority of good players say that you shouldnt count 12 and especially not in a falseta.

Instead you should use a Jerez style compás loop. Ricardo uploaded a nice one a long time ago. I have it as well. Also in a slowed down version. Around 200bpm. I can send it to you or I can upload it on the Audio/video section.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 0:38:41

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

i wouldn't worry too much... just beat flamenco into that guitar until it surrenders!

Good to hear!

I'm also going to use a 6 beat loop which I got off of this forum. Its WAY easier to use in my opinion than the a 12 beat loop. I think we should all use the same loop just to keep things fair and also not have any potential issues arise because of people using different loops. I also like Anders point that a Buleria is only a Buleria after about 180 bpm, then it stops being an excersise and becomes music.

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 8:31:49

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders

Thanks for your input, yes if you would be so kind you could upload the loop? I also request that you volunteer to be a judge! Your opinion and passion would be very much appreciated!

Hopefully I make it to 200, I think I can. The reason I mentioned 140 is that there is a slow bulerias I have and the bpm is 140 - but I was going off my memory and not to sure hence the question mark.

OK, I understand I think why thinking in sixes is the way to go, but then I wonder what is the point of these 12 count solo compas loops? Dance? If dancers can benefit then surely so can the tocaor?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2009 15:58:14

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

cathulu,

I honestly think that if you work your way through the slow version very carefully, paying attention to keeping a steady beat (rather than fussing over each note), then I bet you will find it easy to play at any speed.

Playing very slowly, but in rhythm is actually more difficult than playing at a normal/faster speed IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2009 0:14:48

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Hi Folks,
looks promissing, all material available, the only thing left is hard work.
I picked up the guitar for a moment and tried to play simple i up and downstrokes at 220....haha, way to fast for me.

Good luck!

quote:

- All entries must be submitted by January 31, 2009. The actual time and recipient that will receive the entries is to be confirmed, but I believe Kozz has agreed to this already subject to his health.

A while ago I already let at_leo_87 know that I declined this, sorry for that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2009 0:39:49

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

As requested, here you have the loop:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119278&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

I think that what this challenge needs is an explanation on how to play this bulerias falseta with a metronome and with a loop. The best would be a couple of videos. slow with metronome and 200bpm with a loop. I could do it, but I will need to learn the falseta first, which´ll take me a week maybe less. ( I have other things to do)

Besides, I 100% agree with Ron. when a falseta like this one is in your fingers and you know the compás, its easyer to play 200 - 220 than 160 - 180bpm. Bulerias work like that. There are a lot of sincopations, and when playing to slow it falls apart. Bulerias gets relaxing from 200 and up. It starts groowing

I will judge if I´m here, I´m not sure.

A few things you guys should consider.
1) if difference between the 2 played versions and the tab, the played fast version shoul be considerd the correct one. Thats the one where it is music!!

2) You should definately choose 1 loop with one speed for everyone. If not, it gets mixed up and way to difficult to judge. I will always judge speed below 180 - 200 very low. Its not bulerias. 180 is very often the speed of Alegrias and it has a totally different feel

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2009 1:04:41

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks Anders for the upload.

Past challenges were not too hung up on speed. Yes, we should play at a speed for the correct feel and groove, but I don't want to force a single speed on anyone.

I double checked, and the slow bulerias I have (146 bpm) is actually a Solea por Bulerias.

I notice most solo compas bulerias is 200 bpm and up. 180 probably is a tolerable minimum.

Probably the hardest part of this challenge is the rolling rasgueo at the end - keeping that clean, clear and at tempo - at least for me.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2009 14:00:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Cathulu.
The fact that something has been one way doesnt mean it cant be another way. Bulerias is a palo very much relying on a certain aire and that aire is partly speed.

To me, a minimum should be 200bpm. When you´ve learned the falseta, its a LOT easyer to play 200bpm than 180. The sincopations are to hard when playing slower. Playing bulerias at 160 is VERY difficult. Especially simple stuff like this falseta.
The problem is that if you put a metronome on 200, its very stressy. It should be on 100 (half speed)
Also IMO, the Solo compás loop is absolutely worthless for this bulerias falseta which has a clear half compás feel. And playing with accents on 12 3 6 8 10 is annoying when playing the falseta. I´m not the only one saying this. Most of the good players here on the foro have argued the same for years.

The last rolling rasgueado, is normally not played like in the tabs and I would never play it like that. You will often want to end on an upstroke. Here, standard is playing 3 triplets starting with an i upstroke. iai iai iai i the last i is on 10 and is an upstroke

The most difficult part is the remate after the alzapua.
If I´m going to judge, I will accept that something else is being played and its in a groovy compás. ( and fast enough

)

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2009 1:51:23

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Hi

I have uploaded some videos of me playing the challenge falseta with a metronome and with a loop:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119564&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2009 9:37:44

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Bump!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2009 13:29:49

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to cathulu)

Im guessing that since you bumped this thread you are looking for some fresh comments??? Well Ive been working on Rons falseta and having been enjoying doing so. Its actually amazing what a little pressure can do to make you learn something new...otherwise it would just be the same old practice routine and learning a little slowly.

Anders you were right about the whole speed thing - this falseta is easier to play faster than slower. The only problem I have that Im working on is getting my golpes clean with alzapua and also the thumb movement from the 4th to the 5th string in compas and with golpe. A couple of more days and it should be good though...although my fingers are getting sore from all those pull offs!

How is everybody else doing with this falseta?

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 28 2009 17:06:48

Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to fevictor)

quote:

All entries must be submitted by January 31, 2009

really??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2009 1:01:10

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Beginners Challenge - Bulerias W... (in reply to fevictor)

Yes, I bumped the thread to keep it in our collective consciousness. Myself, I have got it under my fingers, wasn't too difficult actually except for the ending bit, thanks to some tips from Anders. So I must be improving. Oh but to make it sound real good and clean with the right aire and some nice compas that will be the real challenge.

I am working on Tientos right now so I am not spending that much time on this right now, spend a bit of time here and there. Everything I am doing is moving in the right direction though. The real sweating and push will be in January!

Yes, I corrected the wrong date!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2009 15:18:17