Totally, totally off topic

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Totally, totally off topic

Hi,

I just finished trying to convert an old, cheap and half-broken digital camera to pick up near infra-red light.

It involves basically taking the camera apart and dismantling the internal lens assembly, removing the bonded IR filter and replacing it with a homemade visible-light filter which allows infra red to pass.

It was a tricky job and I half suspected the camera would not even function at all afterwards.

But it worked!

Here's a picture of my soldering iron (which normally looks black, even when hot).....

Sorry for the totally, totally off topic thing, but I was quite pleased at the result and my wife just shrugged her shoulders and said "Hmmm...if it makes you happy"

cheers,

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2009 12:21:42

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

Wow! I should think that did make you happy. It would make me ecstatic! (I'm very easily pleased.....

)

Seriously I think that's pretty amazing, it's a great pic. I wouldn't even know how to begin fidding about with a digital camera. And as for a home-made visible light filter ..... errrr.... home made out of what exactly?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2009 12:38:33

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

And as for a home-made visible light filter ..... errrr.... home made out of what exactly?

Hi Ailsa,

Basically, the CCD sensor in a digital camera extends down a bit beyond visible light to the near infra-red spectrum.
Since this will interfere with normal photography, the manufacturers put in an infra-red filter to block this and only allowing normal visible light to pass.

So you remove this and put in a filter to block ordinary visible light....a very dark piece of a colour film negative (so you can't really see through it) will do this, so you just cut it down to fit inside the lens assembly.

Glad you liked it Ailsa!

I'm pretty chuffed at the results!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2009 12:47:08

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

That's some cool tinkering Ron. I want to see more pictures. :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2009 13:12:47

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

hehehehe (in reply to Ron.M)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2009 16:35:49

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

cool!

i can barely get my camera to take a descent picture with normal, visible light.

maybe for your next project you can work on a camera that will capture pictures of ghosts?

hmmmm.... maybe i shouldn't talk about ghosts. im home alone tonight and im getting freaked out...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2009 23:34:44

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

I dont get it... can it detect warm spots? Mustn't be the finger brighter than? But fascinating to be able to customize such complicated little things...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2009 23:48:02

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

can you take pictures of ghosts with that thing?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2009 0:58:17

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Totally, totally off topic - ano... (in reply to Ron.M)

That's rather neat Ron.

Funnily enough I too am messing about with a camera this weekend. Have a look at this photo of my dog. It has been through a process called High Dynamic Range processing (HDR) - you can Google it but basically it's 3 photos combined - each with a different exposure to fill in the shadows and soften the highlights. I love the effect.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2009 8:28:21

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

This dog picture is awesome... Like in 3d.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2009 8:59:57

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Doitsujin)

OK, then one more. My buddy Shaz in his shop. 3 exposures remember, so he had to keep still. My camera does automatic exposure bracketing, so I only have to press the button once, but you need a tripod.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2009 9:29:01

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Doitsujin)

This was the original photo before processing...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2009 9:35:21

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Escribano)

Sheesh!,

That's definitely HQ photography Simon!

It's like the Sunday Times colour supplement or something....that sort of "larger than life" look.
You definitely know your stuff here.

Doit, that soldering iron was at about 450ºC...you would really nead a thermal imaging camera to pick up body temperature stuff.

Duende & A.T, I thought ghosts were meant to cause a cold feeling in the room...hence very little IR radiation, so I don't really know where that theory originated from?

Kovachian, I'd never heard of that TV series before...although the phrase "The only Tool you'll ever need" doesn't really work in British English, as "tool" has another meaning.

Mr. Magenta, I've got the damn thing in bits again as it's just a cheap, fixed focus thing and the focus is out in IR, so I'm trying to work something out to correct this.

I had originally wanted to have some kind of thermal imaging 'scope to help finding faults on complex digital PCBs...but the wavelength doesn't go down far enough sadly. Will try to post some stuff if I get the focus problem fixed.

If that doesn't work, then I'll probably just leave it and start drilling a port in my guitar instead.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2009 11:36:16

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I had originally wanted to have some kind of thermal imaging 'scope to help finding faults on complex digital PCBs...but the wavelength doesn't go down far enough sadly. Will try to post some stuff if I get the focus problem fixed.

Great work! You might try out hooking that up to a telescope for astro-pix ....

Simon: Great dog!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2009 8:47:07

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to edguerin)

I don't have a telescope Ed.
But I was thinking along the same lines as I'm beginning to find out that there is "reflected" IR and "self-generated" IR.
The modified camera can really only pick up stuff with a temperature of over 400ºC.
I was looking at pointing it skyward, but it has been cloudy and rainy for the past few days here.

Here's a picture through my window today....

The vegetation looks very white like on a winter's day, but actually it's all lush green!

I'll experiment a bit more when the weather clears up.

cheers,

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2009 10:10:13

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

Interesting stuff. A few years ago most of the people I was hanging around with were engineers. They love tinkering and technical stuff like this. Do you think a camera with a small TV type viewfinder could be used in IR mode in real time?

This reminds me of video I saw about a guy who taught kids how to make holograms with lasers he bought from a supermarket that went out of business (lasers that scan UPC codes in the checkout line).

Maybe you can fine tune your camera and use it to dispel some of the controversy about sound ports.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2009 12:11:32

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

That is very cool stuff! I just bought a Panasonic lx3 camera and love it although the zoom is limited to 60mm. The nice thing is it is relatively unobtrusive so you can do stealth shots. It has auto bracket exposure so I am gonna try one of those image processed shots! Simon, I think you should take your dog for a nail clipping soon! Beautiful dog btw!

Ron that is so cool with the infra-red camera. I have often thought about capturing various images of the night sky at the same time from a few digital cameras and then combining the information to get a much higher resolution shot. I thought of this many years ago, and I think that is what they do nowadays. I also thought of designing moveable tuneable intake and exhaust pipes for motorcycles years ago but the technology did not catch up with my mind till now. I tell you, I am a freaking genious!

Ha Ha!

My latest thought is to put together a movie of the Voyage to Arcturus, any investors want to jump on board?

PS Doritos are 99p? Isn't that almost a pound? Yikes!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2009 15:52:26

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ailsa)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

I wouldn't even know how to begin fidding about with a digital camera. And as for a home-made visible light filter ..... errrr.... home made out of what exactly?

instructables.com

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2009 15:57:20

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Simon, I think you should take your dog for a nail clipping soon! Beautiful dog btw!

Yeah, but he would need a general anaesthetic, or he'll take someone's hand off - so he is stuck with them.... damn stubborn wuss.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2009 1:21:19

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

Do you think a camera with a small TV type viewfinder could be used in IR mode in real time?

Pgh....There is a small LCD screen on the camera, so I can use it in real time...or even make a short video.
It's better hooked up to my PC USB port (in Webcam mode), as the picture is much bigger and clearer.

If someone stands in front of you and operates an ordinary TV remote control, it looks like a flashlight, very bright....so if you had to make a flashlight out of some high power infrared LEDs, you would be able to see clearly in a darkened room.

All this has been done before of course, but I just like tinkering with stuff rather than just reading about it.

I would love to get a Thermal Imaging camera, but even a cheapo one costs around £2000.....the good ones, £8,000 to £16,000 !!!

Simon...I've got a cat like that....it has long hair which sometimes gets clogged with those sticky, "fuzzball" type plant seeds in the summertime.
She's so vicious that she needs a general anaesthetic even to get a haircut!

Needless to say the claws are long, strong and totally deadly when used on someone's feet or ankles as well as ripping up carpets and soft furnishings.
We call it "the claw of Death".
I don't know why we keep the vicious, ungrateful swine....it's done hundreds of pounds worth of damage as well as causing pain and injury to innocent folk.
I didn't even want it in the first place, but was nagged into it by my wife and daughter.

Absolutely beautiful dog though!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2009 4:10:00

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Pgh....There is a small LCD screen on the camera, so I can use it in real time...or even make a short video.
It's better hooked up to my PC USB port (in Webcam mode), as the picture is much bigger and clearer.

If someone stands in front of you and operates an ordinary TV remote control, it looks like a flashlight, very bright....so if you had to make a flashlight out of some high power infrared LEDs, you would be able to see clearly in a darkened room.

All this has been done before of course, but I just like tinkering with stuff rather than just reading about it.

I would love to get a Thermal Imaging camera, but even a cheapo one costs around £2000.....the good ones, £8,000 to £16,000 !!!

Ron, that's so cool! I can't sacrifice my camera for a project like this, but I'll be sure to pass this info on to my friends.

Simon, those are some incredible pics, but it's like the old fashioned cameras from the 1800's--the subjects are forced to stay still to avoid ruining the picture. With all of your equipment and expertise have you been asked to film any weddings or graduations?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2009 21:44:50

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

The modified camera can really only pick up stuff with a temperature of over 400ºC.

???????????????????

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2009 7:18:36

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to edguerin)

Yeah Ed.....When a substance gets hot it emits IR, the hotter it gets then the shorter the wavelength. If you continue to heat it to higher temperatures it will start to enter the visible spectrum...from red hot to white hot. (like an electric fire or a light bulb)
Thermal Imagers have different sensors in them and can pick up the very long wavelength stuff from living animals and heat escaping from a poorly insulated house etc

The sun is exremely hot, so emits a tremendous amount of IR radiation of all sorts of wavelengths which is then reflected off things (like plants etc) and so the camera picks that up.

Hope that makes more sense?

It's interesting to note that leaves and grass etc reflect a great amount of IR light (which seems to indicate the plant has no need of it at all...otherwise it would absorb it).

I also wonder if that's why the shutters on Spanish windows are painted that colour?

We sometimes get low flying helicopters passing close to us and I was hoping to have a look at one at night to see if I can pick up the exhaust port of the jet engine...or even a plane, although they are still flying quite high even though they are approaching Aberdeen airport about 15 miles or so away.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2009 8:09:33

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

With all of your equipment and expertise have you been asked to film any weddings or graduations?

Not interested, picky clients and boring subjects (for me)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2009 8:12:43

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

Simon, those are some incredible pics, but it's like the old fashioned cameras from the 1800's--the subjects are forced to stay still to avoid ruining the picture.

A constraint of the design. A manufacturer could build a camera that took multiple images in the same shutter exposure with multiple aperture settings and either stored them in sets or did a merge in firmware before writing one HDR image for subsequent tone mapping on a computer.

Video is way trickier but I would expect to see HDR video cameras one day - maybe the next big thing after HD?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2009 8:34:47

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron, have you considered going to a flea market type place and buying some junk remote controls?

Take one of those LED flashlights that has a whole bunch of LEDs, and replace them with the IR LEDs from the remotes.

I don't know how much IR they would emit.

I'm pretty sure that if you photograph an IR remote while it is signalling it will show up on your camera.

I suppose you could take a pic of one of your current remotes while aiming it at your table (maybe news print with words?) from different ranges in dark/dim conditions to see if it might ever be feasible.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2009 15:48:52

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

It's interesting to note that leaves and grass etc reflect a great amount of IR light (which seems to indicate the plant has no need of it at all...otherwise it would absorb it).

I also wonder if that's why the shutters on Spanish windows are painted that colour?

Interesting question. You can't help but notice that everywhere you go, they are invariably that dark green. I thought it was just one of those traditional things "because that's the way it's done" - but those traditions always start out with some sort of reason, even if noone can remember it now.
I've wondered what would happen if someone (it would have to be a foreigner) painted their shutters another colour...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2009 9:05:50

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Estevan)

oh wow Simon those photos are amazing...the one of the dog is incredible i had no idea stuff like that is possible this days..

quote:

my wife just shrugged her shoulders and said "Hmmm...if it makes you happy"

lol i think i am with her on this one...i mean its cool and everything.. but ...why ? lol

are you planning to brake into a bank and u need this to take photos of the invisible infrared alarm lines..like in the movies ?

...everybody knows u just use spray for those

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2009 12:37:40

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

Very cool photos!

BTW, today I found a canon s80 8MP digital camera in the trash including charger and all, I tried all the features and everything is working as it should. The lcd-screen is busted and needs to be replaced, but a replacement part goes for a mere $30 on e-bay so I might fix it. Seems like a decent camera, even if it's a few years old :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2009 15:51:27

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Totally, totally off topic (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron,

could it be you're confusing °C with °K?
400° C would be 752° F wereas 400° K would be 127°C ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2009 22:47:33